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Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:50 am 
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I thought it was telling that they were only thought of after everything else to be added to the army list database (the thread by Blacklegion)


Forgive me but i can't remember to ever have written something about WhiteScars. What thread do you refering to?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:18 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 17 2007,07:49)
QUOTE
1. Tournament ready lists (well balanced, hard to exploit). Current ready lists
2. Balanced and somewhat tested. Offsets exists. Perhaps stuff like Ulthwe.
3. Playable lists. Tyranids, Tau, Dark Eldar
4. Rest. Demiurg, Scions of Iron, Krieg, IG armoured

Adding not done lists to category 1 is not the way to go ahead.

As for Tyranids. It will take more time as we are redoing special rules. That means that all the units needs to rechecked after special rules are done. So it's somewhere between square 1 and 2.

Yes, but people want to use their tau and tyranids in tournaments - are you going to say they can't? This handbook is just a compilation of the most up to date lists for all core races for the purpose of tournament style gaming. None of these is ever really 'finished' I think.  Look at Netepic - up to V5 and still debate continues, but at least it is all in one document rather than spread all over the place like a tornado hit it...

Tau and tyranids are already 'tournament ready' because people are already using them in tournaments, a lot of testing has already occurred on these lists. However in any case like I said there is still time so don't panic. Keep working away at the Bug special rules etc, and if they really are 'not ready' then they won't go in.  

(And no, Dark Eldar, Demiurg, Scions, Kreig, IG armoured, and all the hundreds of fan lists will not be going in this.)


@ BlackLegion: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....3;st=60

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:39 am 
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Ah database. Sorry but i had no sleep this night :)  Mind ..not....working..optimized...yet...

Ok. But the WhiteScars list was included there. But not the new version.

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:01 am 
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I can't actually get this to download at all. :(

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:05 am 
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(mageboltrat @ Jul. 17 2007,09:01)
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I can't actually get this to download at all. :(

Sorry Magebolt, I've just been uploading a newly corrected version with corrections from Hena, EC, Chroma. Try it now.

One other change - Landraiders to 350. It seems its not just my group that is still grumbling about them with only a 25 point drop.  Try and break it.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Hena let me assure you that I do share your concerns.
Lets be clear. I see this for inclusion:

-Marines
-Guard
-Orks

-Eldar
-Siegers
-Ferals

-Black Legion
-Lost and Damned

-Tau (possible)
-Tyranids (possible)

-(Possibly Ulthwe because they have been tested alongside  Biel Tan for some time).


I think that is a realistic, attainable goal, and a proper focus for this project. I think the majority of people would agree (and if not they can let me know!). I reject notions that any other fan lists would be as valid or correct to include in this document as Tau or Tyranids, though I believe you were talking about tournaments specifically when making those comments about fan lists.

Regarding tournaments - It is always up to a tournament organiser as to what they include or not and no challenge is meant to that. The intention is to make such tournament inclusion criteria easier for us, eg like I stated on the previous page (emphasis added):

Not everyone wants to hunt around for lists under development. If they do it is one line to state 'use handbook 1.0 but tau list x.x and tyranid list x.x'.  Nothing is really lost by including them (tau and tyranid lists), but something is gained for the casual less hardcore player.


Simple specifications like that one line should be much easier for tournament organisers than the current situation. To such specifications a tournament organiser can then add any fan lists they wish to allow. Alternatively if you want to be really strict and mean for an ultra competitive tournament -  'Handbook 1.0 but tau and tyranid lists will not be allowed'.  Also like I said it would be possible to add notes such as 'requires opponents or tournament organisers permission to use' to tau and tyranids if they are thought to be particularly contentious. I would prefer that option over straight out not including them.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:50 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 17 2007,13:09)
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As tournament organiser the most important thing is balance.

Certainly important, but far more important is that people are encouraged to turn up and play. Banning tau or tyranid players would seem highly counterproductive in that regard, at least in my own situation. As I have said other tournament organisers are free to do whatever they want.

Enough on this, your points are taken into account. Back to revising rules so things are balanced.  Onwards!

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:16 pm 
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Ok the next version is up. See first post.  I've dragged what seems to be most recent consensus on various issues from around the place and stuck them in. Got hopelessly confused trying to work out where things are on hit allocation (1.9.6) and fearless (2.1.3) though... Hopefully this can be cleared up soon.

Check it out and comment. A sampling of some of the issues...

Flak rush nerfing -  Flak units that did not choose overwatch or sustained fire actions get -1 in disengage phase.  I would prefer the version where they just can't fire at all but I don't think that is supported from what I was reading on the forums?

Air Craft Sniping and Aircraft Escorts: People keep asking about both of these and many proposals have been suggested.  I would like to see rules for both of these in the main rules... but I don't think it will happen. Thus I have put in 'Design Concept' options that have been suggested. Hopefully that will be enough.

Orks Found Neal's suggestions, (incl for Speedfreaks if they are to be added) Stompamob big and uge upgrades are allowed, and 0-1 Supa Stompa for 300 points (regardless of formation size).  There's wide agreement that ZZap guns are too good and need some sort of nerf. Very unimaginatively I've just dropped the 'to hit' by one. (I would note that due to a mistake in the initial EA print my group played them as TK(1) for ages and still thought they were a good deal - so that might be an option, but I prefer the 'unpredictable but destructive' idea for orks)

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:47 am 
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Chaos Question - was anything ever decided upon for the Chaos Greater Daemon criticals? Ie they just kill anything within 5cm's no matter how big it is on a 6? Are people really ok with that?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:36 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 20 2007,05:20)
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(Markconz @ Jul. 19 2007,15:16)
QUOTE
Flak rush nerfing
Air Craft Sniping and Aircraft Escorts

I would just use the NHs post in SG for aircraft changes.
http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic ... C_ID=11371

In addition to those we disallow aircrafts being able to contest objectives or prevent They Shall Not Pass during the turn it lands. Since that is too easy way to delay the game. I got a person here who doesn't like that -1 thing even, let alone total ban :).

About escorts. I don't have an opinion.

Yes those are the changes I made. Plus some others Neal posted in another thread which I thought were agreed upon... and what (I think) is the most recent version...  (basically the principle seems to be that aircraft models stay on the table now).

Orks Found Neal's suggestions, (incl for Speedfreaks if they are to be added) Stompamob big and uge upgrades are allowed, and 0-1 Supa Stompa for 300 points (regardless of formation size).  There's wide agreement that ZZap guns are too good and need some sort of nerf. Very unimaginatively I've just dropped the 'to hit' by one.

I wouldn't make wild changes to this kind of document. So if you want to tweak something, just do those that NH suggested (as he's the army champ in question).

Yes but those are Neal's suggestions - nothing wild there, and he agrees that Zzap guns need some sort of nerf but he is not sure what. That is why I'm throwing this out there? Ie if they get nerfed - how? Just -1 to hit is the simplest option so lets start with that as a possibility for comments/testing.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:14 am 
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Wow.  Awesome.

I definitely want to talk about this off-line once I get caught up from vacation.

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