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The Bell Formula

 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:54 pm 
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Cheers for that Xavi! I'm still restudying Quadratics and other mathematical nonsense (It's been so long!)

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:28 pm 
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Heh, no biggie. I find it quite hilarious to see a "Bell" formula being worked up :p Should we say that it is being worked on *again*? ;) :p

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:36 pm 
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Ah ha!

After taking a deeply flawed IQ test it hit me how to quantify force multipliers:

+50% firepower. +20%(120) in value will increase the enemy firepower by 20% (reducing durability by 20% and therefore firepower, by 20% of the new total of 150%, meaning its worth is 120!)

(150) 25/125 = 1/5 = 20%

Thank you IQ test!

+100% firepower. +33.3% in value will increase the enemy firepower by 33.3% (reducing durability by 33.3% and therefore firepower, by 33.3% of the new total of 200%, meaning its worth is 133!)

(200) 50/150 = 1/3 =33.3%

+25% firepower, +11% in value will increase the enemy firepower by 11% (reducing durability by 11% and therefore firepower, by 11% of the new total of 125%, meaning its worth is 111.25!)

(125) 12.5/112.5 = 1/9 =11.1..%

Divide half the additional% by (the full new %value of the old value(100%) - half the additional %) then add the original value.

This is only usefull for comparing weapons systems on the same hull and in the same role (having the same durability). So excellent to compare the Murder and Hades, or Carnage and Acheron. Or variants of the same ship (like SC variants).

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RayB

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:41 am 
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I have to confess that I did not understand a single statement in the previous post :O Seems work is progressing, though! :D

Xavi

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:25 am 
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Hi Xavi,

Actually thinking further on this, it's very important for the points value! This part of the Formula will take the 'enemies increase in firepower relative to increase in value' into consideration.
i.e. If you kept adding bonus' to a ship that cost as much as they would for the first time, you'd end up with a really expensive ship, assume it cost double, that would mean that you are now fighting double the enemy so the ships durability has been halved (halving the firepower it brings to the game!).

What I need is the most basic ship I can think of that has the starting blocks of MOST ships (all is too much of a stretch! It doens't have to exist already). Something close to a Merchant (but with more 'standard' fire arcs). Darn! What is a stanadrd looking ship in BFG?

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RayB

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:31 am 
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Standard looking? Merchant?
Maybe the Rogue Trader thread around here can inspire you.

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:40 am 
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Ray, if you, member of the HA, do not know that, I can assume that all of us will be at a loss here.

I would nominate the murder/lunar as a benchmark. Firepower equal to 4 lances on the sides, with the options to increase/decrease that firepower somewhat due to diverse factors like BM or range.

Xavi

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:06 pm 
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I agree with the Murder as a standard vessel. It should be possible to work out an equivalent lance/weapon battery calculation, for example strength four weapons = one lance.

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:03 pm 
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He He,

Seriously though, take ALL the fleets, now look for a standard basic ship! The fleets are so very different (amazing given the simplicity of the rules!)!

The Merchant for the most part is worse than all other ships in every aspect, and has multiple arcs including broadsides. It's a good starting block.

BUT when sumarising ships hulls and weapons:
Eldar= 6hits holofields 4+, Front
CWE= 6hits 5+ holofields, Front
DE= *(9hits 6+* special), Front (*LFR)
Chaos= 8hits 2 shields 5+, Front OR LFR, mainly broadsides.
Orks= 10hits 1 shield 4+/5+/6+, Mainly Front, little broadsides.
SM= 6hits 1 shield 6+, LFR, AC and little broadsides.
IN= 8hits 2 shields 5+/6+ prow, Front, and broadsides.
Tau= 8hits 2 shields 5+/6+ prow* Mainly Front, AC, little broadsides that can shoot forward.
Nids= *(10 hits, 1 shield, regenerate), Front, little broadsides (weird weapons).
Necrons= 8hits 5+ save 6+, LFR mainly, little broadsides, plus special weapons like SPG and portals.

You may want to ignore Nids and DE, as I'm using ER.  :D

Now in terms of building blocks: The Merchant has 6 hits with 5+ armour (less than most), has small broadsides (similar to 'most'), can shoot LFR with little firepower (also suprisingly common, but not enough to be a starting block).

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RayB

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:18 pm 
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Average:

8 hits, 2 shields, armor 5+.

It has always been the benchmarking of the game. Or it should have been. Lances and WB effectiveness is tested against this kind of armor. Eldars are a simply a case of "too many special rules" to be considered to be playing the same game as the rest of the fleets ansd should be scrapped IMO. Marines OK with their basic hull and ships/rules if you do not take into account the BT rules, same with taus etc.

A basic line cruiser is a mix of IN and chaos. Speed 20, 5+ armor, 2 shields, 8 hits, 4 weapon slots with each slot being equal to either 2 lances, 6 WB or 2 LB.

Anything that deviates from that benchmark is potentially broken either by being too good or by being too bad.

I see no problem using this simple model as the benchmark to test the whole game system.

Best,

Xavi

PS: Adoes the survivality model take into account the force multiplier implied in thye stripping down of shields? I think it does, but just to be sure

PPS: this came up much more aggressive than I intended to. problems of having been checking aerial traffic statistics for 8 hours already.... bugger...

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:05 pm 
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Hmmm.

(sidenote no eldar or cwe ER for you Ray ;) ).

Why not start with 1 module?

Start with 4 hits and simple broadsides?

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:34 pm 
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Xavi,

Agressive, didn't notice... a bit blunt perhaps? (I prefer that style of conversation anyways!  :) )

The whole point of the building block is that it has to have stats less than those of most other ships, then has to have the growth potential to be upgraded into any ship. Hence the Merchant! The lowest of the low!  :D

Ah, the force multiplier, yes this calculates the 'actual' and overall survivability of a ship taking its cost into account (it's just part of that part of the formula!).
So in BFG terms 'now' the Styx has 69% the survivability of the Devastation! And to be fairly pointed would have to be roughly 3 times as powerfull 'one on one'! Which is an excellent example of 2 badly pointed ships!!!  :D

The Styx 'broadside on' gets an extra 6WB's (at range) and 2 Lb's, it's kinda like an extra 50% firepower, so if the Dev was fairly pointed the Styx would be worth about 230pts.  But we all know the Dev is too cheap!  :D

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: The Bell Formula
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:44 am 
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Hi BH,

I think I'll skip the Eldar fleets for the points system, for the moment, as they are so weird!

Modular ships? like 1 hit comes with 3WB's say?

Cheers,

RayB

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