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Cadres
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:20 am 
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(ChrisHayes @ Jun. 27 2007,10:55)
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Well with 5+ armour they don't need cover as much as nearly every other army out there - taking ground rapidly I would say is done better by tanks in epic as you don't get any stranded men. Considering the sheer firepower of the formation with armour, skimmers etc its amasing that it is considered to be undergunned vis a vie other formations.

So it's the old chesnut... either up the cost of the comparatively superior formations, or reduce the cost of Fire Warriors...

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:17 pm 
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I get the impression he's pretty much given up on Fire Warriors now

How were they used? Did they have support nearby to contribute FF or did they sit on the objective alone with their arse in the breeze waiting for an Air assault/CC? If so, were they on overwatch waiting for an air assault/CC so they could shoot the be-geezus out of those assaulting marines? It's all about how you use them.

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:44 pm 
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Because they were such a costly and large formation they almost dictated my strategy. I supported the FW's with two moray's and a formation of Ion Heads to keep enemy formations from being able to swamp them. I kept them hoping from cover to cover to preserve them from return fire especially from BP weapons. But on turn two in both games they were all but wiped out. The eldar came through the warp gate and kicked the hell out of the and the SM's combined assaulted them with devastators and termies and somewhat predictably kicked the hell out of them and my Ion Heads. I usually use my jump pack troops and tanks to grab objectives in turn three as they are plenty fast enough to do the job. These games left me with the impression that even when they are beefed up FW just aren't cost effective. Even if the other units in the list are toned down (as an aside I would support taking away smart missiles from some of the choices and keeping the points the same as these are optional extras in 40k) they and indeed non-Jump Pack infantry in general in the Tau list isn't worth taking.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:15 am 
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With Jstr19's observations in mind, is this what most people think about FWs? - that maybe they aren't much good which ever way you look at it(in contrast to CS's observtions). If so, then there's no issue with the rest of the list and I don't think you should nerf the other units to try to make the FWs more attractive as that will only downgrade theplayability of the list.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:22 am 
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Well the thing that sold me on SM1, was that the infantry was useful as opposed to most games, where many times, they are a speed bump.  From a real world/historical basis, that is not normally true.  So If Tau infantry is broken (?)... IMO ... there is something wrong ...   :alien:

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:47 am 
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My complaint about FW's isn't that they aren't good. I think in both my games they did their job farily well. They essentially wiped out a beefed up guardian unit with Wraithlords, Wraithguard and a Farseer as well as all but destroying a formation of terminators, land Speeders and devastators against evil and chaos. My complaint is that they job they perform in the Tau list just doesn't need doing. As I mentioned before my observation has been that if the Tau are forced to fight they are in trouble and FW's and Human helpers are always forced to fight. IMHO the Tau work best using hit and run tactics sending in a battle suit cadre about 30cm away destroying the transports and then jumping away when your opponent attempts to engage them.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:13 am 
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Is the FW cost accurate: CS says so and many agree.
Are the FW stats accurate: CS says so and many agree.

Something has to give then - if you aren't going to change them then the list has to change around them.
IMO pulling the Armored Cadre from the core isn't nerfing the unit, it just nerfs the frequency of the formation... But that is just not going to happen right now I guess.

If the FWs just can't hold their water, they still need to stay in the list; in other words they must remain the focus of the core formations.  The choice seems pretty easy at this point in light of CS's previous post: Armored Cadre needs a point bump (possibly to 400 points) and a speed decrease to 25cm.  That should be enough to discourage their use slightly and bring FWs back to the forefront.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:04 am 
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Hell if anything I would say these chaps are a bit to good (looking at mech) - does anybody though use them as a mechanised formation? I am wondering if I should try a fearless mech formation as thats something I haven't done yet - would make the main weakness (assaults) far less of a problem but I guess it would be my BTS at 450-600 points (FW, transports, bloke, AA - more FW?).

Perhaps to give people the idea the Cadre option should be mechanised and the foot option in the support formations?

As to the tanks -5cm/+25 points, yeah sure I'd try it, might knock an activation of pathfinders off the army but more likely I'd lose an upgrade or two otherwise reckon I wouldn't change things to much.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:23 am 
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IMO pulling the Armored Cadre from the core isn't nerfing the unit, it just nerfs the frequency of the formation

I don't see your logic Mosc'. What stops me from putting in a 6 vehicle Hammerhead support formation if it's not a cadre?
That should be enough to discourage their use slightly and bring FWs back to the forefront
I can easily take Crisis suits instead of FWs and put exactly the same troops on the board and STILL not take FWs. Should we then take out the Crisis cadre too? The assumption of FWs being the mainstay of the Tau forces is true in some respect but not to the point where you are forced to take a FW cadre if you don't want to.

Why not have the OPTION of doing Armoured and FW or Crisis cadres as you see fit? The Tau aren't as rigid in their design as Eldar, so army selection should be more free IMO.

CS - On the topic of changing the Armoured cost I can take the idea of a points boost but a speed nerf as well as a points increase? That's a bit over the top. Do one or the other.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:25 am 
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(Dobbsy @ Jun. 28 2007,05:23)
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CS - On the topic of changing the Armoured cost I can take the idea of a points boost but a speed nerf as well as a points increase? That's a bit over the top. Do one or the other.

At this stage, I am only considering the speed reduction - with no points change.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:45 am 
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At this stage, I am only considering the speed reduction - with no points change.


Will that change make you consider using Fire Warriors in your own Tau army?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:50 am 
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I don't think CS is an evil min maxer so he has no reason not to! :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:31 pm 
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(Dobbsy @ Jun. 28 2007,00:23)
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IMO pulling the Armored Cadre from the core isn't nerfing the unit, it just nerfs the frequency of the formation[/quote]
I don't see your logic Mosc'. What stops me from putting in a 6 vehicle Hammerhead support formation if it's not a cadre?

It was meant in context of people claiming that removal of the armored cadre is a 'nerf'.  It really isn't a nerf of the unit or the formation, only the frequency.  In other words, you would be forced to field more cores (which was the point of me bringing it up).

And no, I don't see the need to remove battlesuits  :glare: - but surely you see that by limiting the number of cores available the FWs will be more likely to show up.

But once again it doesn't matter; CS agrees with you.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:03 pm 
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I'm with Moscovian in that Armoured Cadre formations should be moved to the Support Section rather than the Core Section, on a background basis.

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