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Cadres
mageboltrat
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:46 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 26 2007,10:58)
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If the Tau list is properly balanced


It's not, many of the other units in the list are *slightly* overpowered. That makes Fire Warriors look like poo.

What I was trying to say was that it should be up to the player how he decides to take his army. We should try to balance things properly rather than force the player to take FW as they are the BEST choice. If things are correct people will take FW because they like FW.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:13 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Jun. 25 2007,21:37)
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That is personal taste. You can't force people to like the same things as you.

Well, you can force people, just like the Eldar list forces you to take Guardians or Aspects, just like the Steel Legion forces you to take Artillery or Russes or whatever.  This is not a foreign concept to Epic, folks.  

If you want an armored choice, build an armored list.

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:32 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 26 2007,12:13)
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(mageboltrat @ Jun. 25 2007,21:37)
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That is personal taste. You can't force people to like the same things as you.

Well, you can force people, just like the Eldar list forces you to take Guardians or Aspects, just like the Steel Legion forces you to take Artillery or Russes or whatever.  This is not a foreign concept to Epic, folks.  

If you want an armored choice, build an armored list.

The Guard list forces you to take either Mech Inf, Inf, SHTs, Tanks or Artillery. You can make almost any army you like. The Ork & SM armies gives you even more choices. The only army that really limits you is Eldar.

You can force people to take things, but you can't force them to like them. You can force them to resent you however.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:29 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 26 2007,12:13)
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Well, you can force people, just like...

You want a "forced" army list?  Take a look at the Lost and the Damned.  You have to take a Coven to get *ONE* support formation.  So a "little" forcing is nothing in comparison to that.

I still like the Cultists... and the Tau.  :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:58 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Jun. 26 2007,07:32)
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You can force people to take things, but you can't force them to like them. You can force them to resent you however.

That is a little heavy, don't you think?  We're talking about army lists for toy soldiers, not running over a basket of newborn puppies. :p

Let's talk about force control in lists, shall we?

1/3 limits on Titans and Aircraft on every list (SMs, Orks, Eldar, IG, plus most fan based lists).

1/3 limit on WE for Necrons.

Eldar are limited to TWO choices for their cores.

IG, while there are many choices, still forces you to take those choices and 400 points or more per core (unless you want to have a lot of infantry).

Chaos... What Chroma said.

The reason for all of these restrictions is not to ruin your fun but to make it more fun for the people you are playing with by providing a well balanced list.  

But all this is moot since CS doesn't want to remove the armored cadre anyway.  

CS, going back over your suggestions I think the limit of one human per one FW formation might work if you were to also nerf the armored cadre in some way as you suggested (speed to 25cm), bump its price, or both.  It just seems like a lot of work to go through when there are easier ways.  Obviously people want their all-tank Tau armies so -while taking this option away is IMO the best solution- it certainly ruins the option to create these power lists and will create some 'resentment'. :;):

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:07 pm 
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Space Marines are limited to airdrop lists, if you want to compete...

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Xisor
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:14 pm 
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Just to chime in for a bit; I agree with Moscovian generally.

Regarding CS's suggestions, I do favour the idea of reducing the numbers of the Human Aux formation. Whilst 'PDF' auxiliaries might be cheap and cheerful garrison units in the Tau Empire, I don't think it's a problem to represent them as such. A problem would be (and IMO is) present when the Tau start permitting/sanctioning their deployment as...meatshields. And the bucket of infantry Human Aux formations we hear about just don't quite sound right. Useful...but the Tau just aren't for that!

Since the lower formation size would bring them into the capacity line of the Orca, perhaps we should consider opening it to them? The Kroot can, and they deserve it less!  :p

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Guest
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:00 pm 
I should say I'm TRC, having a few survaliance problem with other account so have switched to this old one for a few days :)

To be honest if someone made an armour list for Tau i would switch to that - I've got siegers for infantry hordes, steel legion for mech, so i'm always going to go tank heavy with the Tau.

Incidentally I should say when comparing core formations its safe to assume there is always a skyray attached, air assault is to much of a threat and the tank itself is damn tasty as well as boosting everyone else with its markerlights.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:03 am 
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With all the calls for removing the AMHC, I'd be interested to see how the Tau list functions without armoured cadres. Has anyone considered how poor they would be without a serious armoured formation? A 4 tank support formation will last all of about 10 seconds in a game - I know, because I remember the earlier Tau lists when that's all they were.... Thanks for keeping them in the list CS.

On the Human Aux issue, I'm keen to know how many games the people calling for their nerf have been involved in where their opponent chose Humans over FWs. I get the feeling (not saying this is 100% true of course) that it's only a few people who see the same list from their regular opponent(s) and not the other players world wide (who choose a different army style). That said, I have no real care whether they get nerfed as I don't want to take them because I prefer an all-Tau list - no dirty aliens for me ?:;):
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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:30 am 
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(Dobbsy @ Jun. 27 2007,00:03)
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With all the calls for removing the AMHC, I'd be interested to see how the Tau list functions without armoured cadres. Has anyone considered how poor they would be without a serious armoured formation? A 4 tank support formation will last all of about 10 seconds in a game - I know, because I remember the earlier Tau lists when that's all they were.... Thanks for keeping them in the list CS.

If the Cadre was removed, I'd assume the "Contingent" would be boosted to 6 tanks, or at least, have the option to upgrade to that size.

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:16 am 
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I play tested a few suggestions yesterday with a couple of my mates. These included increasing the cost of Broadsides and linking the number of human helpers to FW formations. IMHO this arguament over FW's I'm not sure is warranted. I took a large unit of FW's with out transports which included a Ethereal and a lot of Drones and attempted to use them in the same role as human helpers. They did I admit perform well at their job. However from my experience yesterday and from using them previously (I admit this is limited) the job FW's are designed for just doesn't need doing in the current Tau list largely due to the amount of firepower that Battle suit and steakth suit formations have combined with the special rule which allows them to hit and not be hit in return. Attempting to hold ground with a very beefed up unit of FW's is ultimately why I lost. I couldn't help but think that if I had taken an army based around HH's and Battle suits I may have enihilated my opponent.
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Guest
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:29 am 

(Dobbsy @ Jun. 27 2007,00:03)
QUOTE
With all the calls for removing the AMHC, I'd be interested to see how the Tau list functions without armoured cadres. Has anyone considered how poor they would be without a serious armoured formation?

People would I suspect replace them with SHT's and perhaps Mechanised, just like a steel legion list.

Lets be honest with all the availible skimmers a competitive player (i.e. for who the gt list is designed) won't leave home without them unless there are some dissadvantages to taking them.

A 4 tank support formation will last all of about 10 seconds in a game - I know, because I remember the earlier Tau lists when that's all they were.... Thanks for keeping them in the list CS.


Slight exaggeration there considering other lists and their 3/4 strong tank formations (Ork, Elfdar, Marines, Guard).

On the Human Aux issue, I'm keen to know how many games the people calling for their nerf have been involved in where their opponent chose Humans over FWs. I get the feeling (not saying this is 100% true of course) that it's only a few people who see the same list from their regular opponent(s) and not the other players world wide (who choose a different army style). That said, I have no real care whether they get nerfed as I don't want to take them because I prefer an all-Tau list - no dirty aliens for me  :;):

Playtesting should be about seeking exploits, not just seeing if your favourite combo is ok.

Ultimately I see nothing wrong with humans being the ideal for the abilities mentioned in previous posts, suits the background after all, but they should then be stuck with those roles, with numbers and points to match and FW should have something going for them.

Consider this - what is the strength of mech troops over tanks in the game?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:43 am 
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(Jstr19 @ Jun. 27 2007,02:16)
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I play tested a few suggestions yesterday with a couple of my mates. These included increasing the cost of Broadsides and linking the number of human helpers to FW formations. IMHO this arguament over FW's I'm not sure is warranted. I took a large unit of FW's with out transports which included a Ethereal and a lot of Drones and attempted to use them in the same role as human helpers. They did I admit perform well at their job. However from my experience yesterday and from using them previously (I admit this is limited) the job FW's are designed for just doesn't need doing in the current Tau list largely due to the amount of firepower that Battle suit and steakth suit formations have combined with the special rule which allows them to hit and not be hit in return. Attempting to hold ground with a very beefed up unit of FW's is ultimately why I lost. I couldn't help but think that if I had taken an army based around HH's and Battle suits I may have enihilated my opponent.

Note that Jstr played against Pulsar with his Tau, and myself, with ground-pounder Marines.


I'm not sure about Pulsar's game with him, but I won mine 2-0 on turn 3 (Two in his half, No unbroken enemies in my table-half).


I get the impression he's pretty much given up on Fire Warriors now.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:01 am 
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Consider this - what is the strength of mech troops over tanks in the game?


The ability to shelter in cover, and take ground rapidly.


However, both of those roles are better-filled by the various types of suits and aux. Fire Warriors are lame in comparison, seemingly because most of the other competing choices are just a little too cheap pointswise.

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Guest
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:55 am 
Well with 5+ armour they don't need cover as much as nearly every other army out there - taking ground rapidly I would say is done better by tanks in epic as you don't get any stranded men. Considering the sheer firepower of the formation with armour, skimmers etc its amasing that it is considered to be undergunned vis a vie other formations.
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