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Cadres
Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:14 am 
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Ok Hena we heard you, I don't think people 100%agree with you however, as I don't think blanket statements like "downgrade everything else" make people very happy. We are simply discussing options here I think.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:47 am 
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Stuff like this is easily dealt with - you add anew formation which is FW with pathfinders and IFV's attached already. Then of course remove transports and pathfinders from the upgrades. But thats by the by and simply list construction.

Essentially this seems to boil down to two issues.
1) Are the Tau as an all inclusive army balanced?
2) Are the Firewarriors balanced?

If its yes to 1 and no to 2 then its an internal problem and if no to 1 and yes to 2 its an overall problem.

So are firewarriors balanced?

I say they are worth while when mechanised - at least when they had markerlights. I don't know about the costs and performance of having to have pathfinders integral or nearby (I would probably go for nearby as co-ord fire means lots of small activations work quite well for me as Tau) as I haven't had to try to play it.

However I would rather spend my points on armour and pathfinder formations as attacking forces. Now whether this is personal preferance or balance I find it hard to say - I certainly prefer armour and I'm not that hot with infantry unless I have masses (siegers!) in any army. Saying that even I can't go wrong if I get to advance to 30cm and open up with the formation (its find all the dice time).

Defensively as a garrison I would only use them as the fearless speedbump. Range 30cm weapons I can exclusively reveal are not that hot. With the sieger armies I rely on the one 45cm weapon per company more than their heavy stubbers. certainly the tau have great potential to move and fire well, but for infantry against a competent opponent that means leaving cover. If the auxiliaries went or became less attractive I would dispense with anything but pathfinder garrisons and go back to mobile armour/pathfinders/air and fight a highly mobile game - something with all those skimmers the tau excel at - firewarriors here just slow you down.

On a separate note the speed drop to 25cm is an interesting idea, the biggest impact I see it having is in assaults, minimising counter charge and perhaps making the tank formations too vulnerable to FF?

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Soren
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:18 am 
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Easiest way to avoid:

1.) eradicate Human auxiliary or make them 0-1 with downgraded detachment size. Seems every army includes them wich is far out of background. They are more rare than mentioned here.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:52 am 
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(Soren @ Jun. 21 2007,09:18)
QUOTE
Easiest way to avoid:

1.) eradicate Human auxiliary or make them 0-1 with downgraded detachment size. Seems every army includes them wich is far out of background. They are more rare than mentioned here.

Indeed.

After 1 game, my regular Tau opponent stopped using Fire Warriors.

After 3 games, my regular Tau opponent started taking two formations of Human Aux.



When you compare them to the human Infantry in the Steel Legion list, they seem about correctly priced (Maybe a tad cheap, but not by much).

If Fire Warriors are so blatantly not worth it compared to the Human Aux, then either:

- Fire Warriors are overpriced.
or
- Fire Warriors are underpowered.


Frankly, I suspect the former.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:23 am 
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Great idea about limiting the human auxilliaries, but it still doesn't keep the Tau player from fielding a solid set of armored cadres for their core formations (in other words, avoiding the the FW all together).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:30 am 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 21 2007,10:23)
QUOTE
Great idea about limiting the human auxilliaries, but it still doesn't keep the Tau player from fielding a solid set of armored cadres for their core formations (in other words, avoiding the the FW all together).

Agreed.

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asaura
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:48 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 21 2007,09:52)
QUOTE
If Fire Warriors are so blatantly not worth it compared to the Human Aux, then either:

- Fire Warriors are overpriced.
or
- Fire Warriors are underpowered.

... or

There's a problem with the human aux. It's been said many times. When a Tau player wants a garrison, it's Human Aux. Lose the humans, and suddenly FW are the troops you want.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 am 
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How can there be such a big problem with Human Aux if they're pointed correctly in comparison with Steel Legion Human Infantry?




Lose the humans, and suddenly FW are the troops you want.


Nope, the Tau player takes Pathfinders and Stealths instead, because they're also superior to Fire Warriors for their points cost.

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:27 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 21 2007,11:09)
QUOTE
How can there be such a big problem with Human Aux if they're pointed correctly in comparison with Steel Legion Human Infantry?

Context, that's how.

The same unit can be more valuable in a different list.  Say we have a unit that is good at AA in a list where there is loads of other AA capability.  If we have the same unit in a list where it is the only AA choice then the points cost might well be different.  In the Steel legion you have to take lots of these quys and there's no battle suits, skimmers, marker lights, pathfinders, stealth suits, etc. to go with them.  In the context of the Tau list they fulfil a different tactical role (garrisoning I believe).

Now, I'm not saying that the points cost of the infantry is wrong (or right for that matter :devil: ) or that there should (or shouldn't :devil: ) be a difference - I'm just answering your 'how' question.  :cool:

Orde

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:32 am 
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I understand that argument and I refute it with the willful insistance that Human Aux are priced about right (Maybe a tad cheap, but not by much) and that it is large parts of the rest of the list that are also priced slightly cheap that then make for cheap synergistic relationships (Hammerheads, etc).

Fire Warriors are only slightly too expensive IMHO, but in an armylist that is overall slightly too cheap, that's a killer.




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GrayDL
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:55 am 
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I am not convinced that FW replacing human aux as garrison forces is the right way to go. Like said earlier, they lack the equipment for forming firebases. Holding ground is also completely against Tau doctrine, thus garrison duty is much more suitable for humans. A case could be even made for not permitting garrisoning by Tau units at all.

FW should be good at mobile mechanized assaults against infantry forces. If they are not used for this role it is likely that some other units exist that do the same job better. Thus, the solution would be to reduce the effectiveness of formations competing for this role, or to make them more expensive. A devilfish full of FW should dish out more AP fire than several squads of crisis suits. Maybe reduce the effect of secondary AP weapons of other Tau units?

Tank formations with a 5cm counter charge would not be any more vulnerable to FF than any other <25 tank formation..
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:45 pm 
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That is true - but they would be more ulnerable than they currently are with a 10cm counter charge.

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