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[Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:16 pm 
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(Zzzap @ Jun. 12 2007,18:09)
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1. If a unit is fired upon after becoming mindless will it take casualties in the same way as a broken unit would?

No.

They are not broken or scared or anything like that, that are more like lurking/nesting, more likely to stick *with* their local Synapse creature than run away.

At least that's my view.  *laugh*

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:18 pm 
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(Dave @ Jun. 12 2007,18:09)
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Additionally, any reason why you choose to remove all BMs without a role? ?I think a rally roll to remove half would be better. ?For one, the hive mind might be occupied else where and couldn't devote its full attention to making the lesser creatures straighten up and behave.

Well, as soon as the Synapse Creatures "plug back in" they are completely restored to mental effectiveness, there's not "partial" links, so they clean right up.

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Dave
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:34 pm 
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Being a computer science guy I look at it this way.  Treat it like a network traffic problem.  Where the hive instructions are the traffic and the synapse/brood creatures are the hardware.

The broods are easier to control when they are not receiving outside stimuli (being shot at, explosions etc, in other words BMs).  As they start to experience more stimuli they require more will to control.  This can reach a limit and the broods eventually become mindless as they are no longer getting instructions from the synapses.  This is due to the synapses being unable to cope with the amount of separate instructions they have to broadcast to the broods to deal with the outside stimuli.

In order to regain control of the mindless broods the synapses have to focus more of the hive mind.  Like I said before, the hive mind might be stretched thin as it is so a rally roll would have a place here I think.  Once the synapses have broadcast enough instructions the broods cease becoming mindless but some of the outside stimuli still remains, hence some of the BMs still remain.

I apologize to those of you offended by my mixing of two different schools of nerdyness.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:34 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,18:24)
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That baggage is only in the playtesters, so it shouldn't really matter. If this would be a list that had been finalised I would agree.

It's not just playtesters, but "recent" players that (may) have the stigma attached to just the word, I'd rather nip that in the spore.

It's not as that 2+ will work with the uber expensive supreme. Change that to 3+ and look at the nids failing activations. And then doing nothing as they don't have weapons.

I fail enough activations at 2+, BMs will make me even less effective! ?*laugh*

The only issue with 1+ init is that it makes spawning a lot easier.

Without that bonus there is few choices.
1. All brood (or common brood) get grot rule.
I feel this would be *way* too brutal... a swarm of 18 Guants and three Warriors would have far too much of an ablative shield.

2. We start getting proper amount of long range weapons.
Not on my watch! ?*laugh*

Asking Nids to lose that possibility to +2 is just wrong.
They just have to suck it up like every other army, and they start "fresh" every turn... will make things a little tougher to do is all.

Yes, but it once more make the fire fight ability more important than close assault. And that is the reason to prevent it :).Honestly, up close, Tyranids are horrifically shooty, the idea they are "mainly claws" is wrong in my view of them in the new Tyranid Codex... though I still support a FF5+ cap for them! ?*laugh*

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:45 pm 
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I'd say 1+ initiative would be the way to go.  It will improve their basic C&C and spawning, which I think is probably a good thing based on the potential extent of this "nerf."

The real test of this is going to be what happens to Nid area control ability.  Without being able to claim objectives no matter what, and with new vulnerability to assaults, the attrition-based "living fence" tactic will probably no longer work.  Nids will need to concentrate more on inflicting casualties on the enemy.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:51 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,18:41)
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Mindless gets -2 to the spawn roll as Hive Mind uses most it's power to reconnect the links?

That could work... and make Lesser Nodes almost useless... *laugh* ?Or it could just be the -1 to get near the same results as before.

But unlike next army they cannot do it any other way! There is no weapons. Any other army has good backing on weapons, Tyranids don't.

I agree. ?I do think they should be 1+ init if these changes are made, we just need to consider possible unintended consequences.

The idea was in the nids list "A horde of teeth and claw.". That was the list target. Changing that isn't a good thing. That's why the long range weapons are out and FF capped.I feel it's still "A horde of teeth and claw.", just not an "unstoppable" one now.

That "teeth and claw" comment from Jervis for the intent of the list was well before the new Codex and, to me, meant an army that couldn't *rely* on just shooting to get things done, that assaults would be their best approach. ?I'm not sure if Jervis provided an indepth explanation of what he meant. ?I'll try and do a search and maybe even email him!

If a fresh swarm attacks a prepped target formation they'll still get their +2. ?If they have one BM, then, perhaps +1, and if they have been savaged already, they're in bad shape to begin with and probably shouldn't be engaging things. ?It means assaults aren't quite as easy as they used to be.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:08 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,19:04)
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Losing that +2 doesn't make sense. You are punishing Tyranids for assaulting. It's not right.

There are better ways to return focus to the army. Some of the units might need to be tweaked after this adjustment and CC values or a few extra attacks in CC could be considered.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:11 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,19:04)
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Again others can fire to get effect out of them. Tyranids don't. Losing that +2 doesn't make sense. You are punishing Tyranids for assaulting. It's not right. What that means is that I'm making more shooting swarms just to make sure that they can do their thing! It's just wrong, plain wrong.

Don't you already take some "shooting swarms" to lay prep Blast markers?  Or take potshots with doubling Warriors?

It just means that Tyranids can *rely* on almost always having that +2.

Perhaps, "Tyranid swarms never count as having more Blast markers than opponents"; they either have the same, or less.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:13 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,18:41)
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The idea was in the nids list "A horde of teeth and claw.". That was the list target. Changing that isn't a good thing. That's why the long range weapons are out and FF capped. Same thing as Tau and their FF/close combat. Tyranids should try to make nids player to assault as much as they can. That is the main reason for me to not give up from that BMs in assault resolution.

Emphasis on "tooth and claw" is exactly the reason the +2 for BMs should be removed, Hena.

Assault mods actually encourage clipping, thereby discouraging mass assaults.  The list becomes centered on FF.  I argued that Inspiring should be removed from the Chaos lists for exactly that reason.

What Chroma said is 100% correct - Nids are insanely shooty.  In the later evolutions of our lists, we stopped taking Hormagaunts altogether and the reason we took Raveners was solely to be able to initiate FF at the greatest distance possible, with the goal of drawing in the Nids' incredible FF support.  With only a few exceptions, traditionally CC-oriented armies like Chaos and Orks were much more likely to initiate CC than the Nids were.

===

Of course, another option could be to leave Unstoppable and cap all Nid FF at 6+...

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:53 pm 
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Blimey again - seems like Neal has really shaken us all up with his input!! I really like the concept behind mindless and the new unstoppable (relentless) - I can also see my opponents loving it as it gives them something else to work towards. Suddenly those disrupt weapons become mighty again.

Chroma - you are doing a great job here mate keeping all of this moving forward in some sort of coordinated fashion! The Hive Mind will get there in the end!

I was looking forward to giving 8.0 a run out but I am more excited about giving 8.1 a try! :)

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