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Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:38 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 06 2007,14:21)
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In a "playtesting" situation, however, all participants know the nature of the situation and the problems and issues that it involves, heck, they're essentially trying to discover those problems and issues!  So, to me, using experimental rules is specifically part of the process of playtesting.

Understood.

It seems to me though that among playtesters and those trying to discover problems and issues sometimes perspective can be lost. Those who spend a lot of time around experimental rules tend to view them as accepted and the standard.

If an experimental army is pronounced "tournament ready". I often wonder how balanced it is against book published armies and book published rules.

Perhaps I am tainted with a couple of bad experiences. I once played in an event where the tournament co-organizer (a big fan of experimental rules) allowed, IMO an unbalanced experimental list 3 days before the tournament and then played the list himself. He of course crushed everyone. Not cool.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:13 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 06 2007,14:21)
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Ah, I should have been more explicit, I was speaking about the smaller "EPIC playtesting community" not the greater "EPIC playing" community.

The smaller playtesting community must be very careful not to forget that experimental rules are not necessarily widely accepted sometimes not well known by the larger playing community.

Occasionally experimental rules folks aren't even very familiar with the book rules. This sort of creates two communities and two games. When they meet it can create some less than optimal events.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:09 pm 
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(Zzzap @ Jun. 06 2007,14:38)
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If an experimental army is pronounced "tournament ready". I often wonder how balanced it is against book published armies and book published rules.

Probably kick butt like the Swordwind armies did... *laugh*

I think all playtesters learned from that experience, but it doesn't mean we can stop being vigiliant. ?It's easy to get "observer bias" while playing the same people/armies, so we just need to be aware of the danger.

Unfortunately, I think it will still be a while before the current crop of experimental armies are fully "tournament ready"... actually, I wonder if any army will ever be "fully" at that state. ?Even the original lists are seeing tweaking/updating.

Perhaps I am tainted with a couple of bad experiences. I once played in an event where the tournament co-organizer (a big fan of experimental rules) allowed, IMO an unbalanced experimental list 3 days before the tournament and then played the list himself. He of course crushed everyone. Not cool.

WOW! ?That is definitely not cool and is exactly why I don't think experimentals should be used in "prize" tournaments.

I can definitely see why you're wary, Zzzap! ?Which army was used for this abuse?




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Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:38 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 06 2007,17:09)
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I can definitely see why you're wary, Zzzap!  Which army was used for this abuse?

Tau.

Need I say more?

By the way I have really enjoyed the exchanges with you and others here on the boards. Until now I haven't really participated in the boards (not really my thing) but I can see its usefulness.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:12 pm 
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(Zzzap @ Jun. 06 2007,22:38)
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Tau.

Need I say more?

Nope!

By the way I have really enjoyed the exchanges with you and others here on the boards. Until now I haven't really participated in the boards (not really my thing) but I can see its usefulness.

I'm really glad to hear that and glad you're participating!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:44 am 
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Playing Nids v Chaos tomorrow night.  I plan to rack up on MW, Ignore Cover barrages, a high activation count to stall the Nids (conveniently goes with the barrage units), a formation of air, and daemons to boost assault when critical.  That should provide just about every proposed Nid countertactic.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:48 am 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 08 2007,02:44)
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Playing Nids v Chaos tomorrow night. ?I plan to rack up on MW, Ignore Cover barrages, a high activation count to stall the Nids (conveniently goes with the barrage units), a formation of air, and daemons to boost assault when critical. ?That should provide just about every proposed Nid countertactic.

We want details, details, details!  *laugh*

If the Nids easily beat MW, IC, fearless barrages, I may say we've got a problem...

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Well, this is the current plan:

Retinue in Rhinos w/ Warlord - Speed and some bulk
Retinue w/ Havocs - area denial, probable garrison
Raptors (8) - fast assault troops to sweep nodes and lictors
Chosen (6) - Lots of AP fire, good CC assault if neccessary, decent FF
Feral
Feral
Feral
Decimator
Decimator
Swiftdeath fighters
===
2950 points (I'll throw something else in there for the 50 points)

The plan can shift based on terrain, but the basic idea is a firepower anchor of Decimators and Havocs with plenty of fast stuff to swing off of it.

This is pretty much optimized to play against Nids.  In an open tournament, I would have more AA (1-2 Obliterators) in addition to the fighters and would probably go with a Daemon Prince in the Chosen as a WE hunter formation.  For Nids, AA is not an issue and all the WEs are really good in CC, so I don't want to count on trying that.

Honestly, this is pretty much an uber-anti-infantry force.  I feel like I have a good chance with this one.  My reservation is that it's completely tooled up to fight Nids which makes even a close game suspect.

I'm also thinking that the style of Nids we've been playing probably has a "tipping point."  It's based on area denial.  It can take tremendous damage and still pull off the basic tactics.  However, I think if damage exceeds its ability to still operate that it may collapse and be completely routed.  Basically, I think it's an all-or-nothing force.  It may be that there ends up being a really big margin of victory even though the game was actually very close.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:15 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 08 2007,14:10)
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Honestly, this is pretty much an uber-anti-infantry force. ?I feel like I have a good chance with this one. ?My reservation is that it's completely tooled up to fight Nids which makes even a close game suspect.

Do you mind toning down the "anti-Tyranid" focus of the army to something a bit more "blind"?

The Decimators and Ferals are usually seen as a staple in any Black Legion army, so they don't need to be tweaked.  Perhaps add those Oblits or DP to de-focus the list a bit.

It still looks like the "usual" Black Legion force around here.

No daemons for "ablative shields"?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:06 pm 
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In order to make the changes I mentioned above (AA, DP) for a blind tournament, it needs 150 more points.  I would drop one of the Ferals or Decimators to get it, then use the leftover points for 1-2 Pacts and a few LDs.  It would probably require dropping a Feral to get the Pact/LD numbers where I would want them.

Aside from Nurgle, daemons are not that great for meat shields.  They cost  almost as much as a CSM.  Plaguebearers work because of the better save.  For the others, the only benefit is the lack of BMs for dying.  The lack of ranged fire offsets the advantages, imho.  Since I don't have a Nurgle army built, I pretty much use daemons exclusively for offensive ability.

A more "blind" list would be:

Warlord in Retinue w/ Rhinos
Retinue w/ Havocs and Oblit
Raptors w/ Pact
Chosen w/ DP and Oblit
Feral
Feral
Decimator
Decimator
Swiftdeaths
Daemon Pool - 5 LD
===
2985 points

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:24 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 08 2007,15:06)
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Aside from Nurgle, daemons are not that great for meat shields. ?

Actually, in a Black Legion list, I tend not to spend any points on Daemons and their associated gear, I'd rather spend that on "real" stuff!  *laugh*

In your first Black Legion list, could you not just drop the Havocs and swap in 2 Obliterators, maintain the "necessary" number of Ferals?  You then just lose two total units from the list, and I still think it's a good "all-comers" army.

Daemons aren't really a necessity to test.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:55 pm 
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I think this will prove to be very hard for the bugs. The two armies I find hardest to play against with Nids are the Black Legion and Tau.

Part of the reason I am not feeling able to contribute greatly to this wider debate is that all my battles have been part of a campaign we have been playing - armies have been designed to fight each other and although we have been using GT rules for set up and victory conditions, the terrain type and density has been determined by the campaign location that each battle is being fought.

I therefore would hesitate to throw my wight behind any argument without more testing myself of 7.4 against opposition who have not tailored their army to fight against a) bugs and b) the conditions of the campaign (including weather).

Looking forward to this batrep Neal!

Lightbringer
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Lightbringer:  Go ahead and post results.  We're all familiar with the kinds of skewed results that come from the factors you mentioned.

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