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Vindicator
Nothing new 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Upgrade FF by 1 to 3+ 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Change weapon to Thunderer Cannon and give +1 EA 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else, see below 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 31

Vindicator
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:24 am 
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Then *gasp* increase the price for Razorbacks? :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:39 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 05 2007,11:24)
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Then *gasp* increase the price for Razorbacks? :D

When they're about the only Marine Tank that's actually worth buying?

How about dropping the points cost on the ones that aren't balanced, rather than increasing the cost of the ones that are. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:51 am 
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Units of 4 vehicles with 4+ armour saves that cannot claim cover saves are pretty much doomed against any moderately shooty army.

I've never been able to get Predator or Vindicator formations to perform at anywhere near the levels of capability of Tactical or Devestator Marines.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:59 am 
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Fits the fluff. SpaceMarines are Elite Infantry not Elite Tankcrew :D

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Revenant
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:07 pm 
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What about to drop its price to 50 pts (as upgrade) + boost its speed, of course?

Vindicator formation cost can be lovered to 200 pts.

Would anybody take it for this price?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:33 pm 
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(Revenant @ Jun. 05 2007,13:07)
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What about to drop its price to 50 pts (as upgrade) + boost its speed, of course?

Vindicator formation cost can be lovered to 200 pts.

Would anybody take it for this price?

I would then consider it, yes.

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Revenant
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:20 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 05 2007,13:36)
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I think that it's a wrong way to go about it.

And can you post your reasons why?

I think Vindicator can be as useful as Dreadnought, who costs 50 pts.

For mechanised detachment, vindicator can be more useful (with better speed, 20 cm is joke), because of (teoretical) speed and better shooting capability

For drop pod / Thunderhawk insertion, dread is better, because entire formation will be without transports and dread can have MW CC weapon and vindi cannot be drop podded or inserted, of course

for garrisoned formation, shooty dread is the best choice

I simply think Vindicator is as useful as Drednought, certainly not more
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ortron
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:56 am 
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Vindicator
Move/ Armour/ Close Combat/ Fire Fight
25cm/ 4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Vindicators Demolisher/ 30cm/ AP3+ AT4+/ Ignore cover
             and  / (15cm)/ Small Arms/ Ignore Cover
Notes: Walker

So that's +5cm move, Ignore Cover to FF attack as well and Walker.
Online


I'm happy with those stats but minus walker as i don't think a big dozer blade, which any tank can have, justifies the ability. Also I think we need to remember when comparing marine armour to other armies tanks such as IG, is that SM pay more due to TSKNF and a better initiative. Simple killing power isn't everything.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:36 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 05 2007,11:51)
QUOTE
Units of 4 vehicles with 4+ armour saves that cannot claim cover saves are pretty much doomed against any moderately shooty army.

SM armor works best when you buy the upgrades to make them larger formations.

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Revenant
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:06 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 06 2007,13:36)
QUOTE
SM armor works best when you buy the upgrades to make them larger formations.

But they can be upgraded only with vindicators and they:

totally slow formation (I try to maneuver with predators so they cain claim crossfire)

contribute almost nothing for shooting (low range)

I use 4 predators annihilators and they are pretty effective against small to medium enemy armored detachments. Cannot compete with big shooty formations of course.
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Soren
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:52 am 
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@nealnut: You say, armor formation work best in larger formations. Until now you are not able to enlarge your armor formations. Hunter and vindi as an "bolstering" is ridiculous.

For me this is a reason why SM armor is not functioning and will not be functioning in armor list in near future if you don?t allow them to get reasonable detachment sizes to a reasonable price.

4+ armor is dead meat against most armies, name them eldar, tau and even orcs with their MW templates of hell. SM Players have to live with this. Space Marines will stay a drop army, with some  tank support useful in some cases. No armor list will alter this exept we radically change the stats and detacment costs of armored formations.

my 0,002 cents

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:20 pm 
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No armor list will alter this exept we radically change the stats and detacment costs of armored formations.


-25pts to all tank formations. Possibly -50pts in some cases (Vindicator detachment for example).

Possibly 5+ RA rather than 4+ armour for several of the tanks too (Pred, Vindicator).

Maybe then they'll be useful.

Maybe.

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