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Vespids
colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:15 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ May 30 2007,16:12)
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BTW ... What was being used for E:A Vespids ?  ???

If I was going to use Vespids (which I'm not) I would use the DRM Vulturs.

(Damn! That new DRM website is good!)

Orde

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:42 pm 
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I've got a pack of those. DRM is good ! :D

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netepic
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:18 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 31 2007,14:23)
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Tagging a target for rifle isn't going to work.


It would work if you have a super self-aiming rifle like a Tau Fire Warrior.

If you have the opportunity to paint an enemy soldier with a marker light, then you have an opportunity to shoot them with your rifle :).

To hit them with a marker light is a wasted shot...

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:14 pm 
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Unless, you use the light as an aim point. Like the Laser sights mounted on many small arms today used mainly by SWAT type units ...  Otherwise, squeeze the trigger ... next target ...

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:07 pm 
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Umm can we please get back on the Vespids question? Cheers
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:58 am 
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Vespids ... yes, I'm all for them ! :alien:

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:20 pm 
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One thing that I am very aware of is the fact that I dont want to add something at this late stage which chanegs the dynamic of the army list - firstly because I think that the balance is actually quite good now, and secondly because it is late in the day to deal with this.

If all else fails, we cold move the Vespids to the collectors section - since they may require considerable changes to make right, and there are no minis for them (and none on the horizon).

The issue with Fire Warriors and Vespids are seperate ones. So...

---

The problem with Vespids is that they are a short ranged firefight unit, with excellent hitting power, but fairly fragile. Giving them short ranged non-FF weapons simply makes them Crisis equivalents - which is easier to balance, but doesnt seem to add anything to the list.

I agree that there is an issue with Vespids, and my primary concern is that they dillute the feel and focus of the list (something that many of you will know is usually my first concern).

I am open to suggestions on these guys. Do we keep them with the current stats, and attempt to balance them by points costs or restrictions on the force list (probably my favoured method), or change the stats to make them closer to Crisis suits?

---

Fire Warriors will not be getting FF4+. Even with Markerlights, it creates a unit with Marine level firefight values. I cant balance the use of Markerlights as an aid to firefights, for a force which has this as a 'weakness'.

In addition, I currently dont think that there is anything wrong with Fire Warriors - which may be a surprise to some people.

Fire Warriors are covered in the 'Cadre' thread, so I will keep comments on them confined to there.

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baronpiero
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:12 pm 
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I'm fine with the vespid and how they were designed as FF specialists.

Sure Vespids can use supported assault tactics, but they don't fit well for coordinate fire manoeuvres cannot guide missiles and just have no ranged firepower at all. Much like kroots, the vespid implies you forget about tau tactics for a different, more common set of tactics. Much like kroots, they don't seem easy to use.


As expressed earlier, the Vespid and auxiliaries in general tend to dilute the "no-assault" character of the army. I'm  not opposed to that. Actually I think a "rarely ever assault" army would be more challenging in the end. And you cannot take more than one auxiliary formation for each core cadre in the army, so it's fairly well limited.
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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:43 pm 
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(baronpiero @ Jun. 02 2007,16:12)
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As expressed earlier, the Vespid and auxiliaries in general tend to dilute the "no-assault" character of the army.

That's kind of the point of the Tau auxilla.  They make up for the weaknesses of the Tau themselves but at the cost of the tight, combined arms, integration that is the army's main strength.

Orde

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:45 am 
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Apeendix is easist way to deal with a contentious unit with no model.....

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:38 pm 
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They make up for the weaknesses of the Tau themselves but at the cost of the tight, combined arms, integration that is the army's main strength.


Sounds to me like at least some of the Auxillia should be strategy rating 3+...

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:00 pm 
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I'm fine with the vespid and how they were designed as FF specialists...

As expressed earlier, the Vespid and auxiliaries in general tend to dilute the "no-assault" character of the army. I'm  not opposed to that. Actually I think a "rarely ever assault" army would be more challenging in the end. And you cannot take more than one auxiliary formation for each core cadre in the army, so it's fairly well limited.


Generally, I agree with this. The Vespids are different, and I am determined not to make them an upgrade as this opens a difficult door. However, as a contingent, which are limited in numbers, I dont think they are beyond help.

That's kind of the point of the Tau auxilla.  They make up for the weaknesses of the Tau themselves but at the cost of the tight, combined arms, integration that is the army's main strength.

And that is exactly the problem! The Tau use their auxiliary troops to compensate for any weaknesses in their warfare, as long as it fits with their overall theme, but it is exactly this issue that tends to weaken the focus of the force list. The trick is for the auxiliary troops to add an additional dimension to a force without covering up a hole in the force ability. I am not sure that we are totally there right now, but I am not adverse to the FF ability of the Vespids, as long as they dont simply get added for firefights and assaults. I wonder if there is something that we can make a minor change to keep the feel of the Vespids.

Sounds to me like at least some of the Auxillia should be strategy rating 3+...

Quite possibly.

Lets go back to first principles for a minute. The Vespids in 40K and the background dont simply exist to do the things that Tau cant. So, what are the uses of the Vespids in 40K and the background? What is their role? What do they do well, and where do they fall down?

They seem to be a strike force, vulnerable to counterstrikes but powerful on the initial attack...

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tv1013
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:26 pm 
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[quote="CyberShadow,Jun. 06 2007,21:00"]So, what are the uses of the Vespids in 40K and the background? What is their role? What do they do well, and where do they fall down?

They seem to be a strike force, vulnerable to counterstrikes but powerful on the initial attack...

Long-time EA Tau lurker, first-time poster!

Not to be a jerk, but Vespids are awful in 40K. ?Okay, they may not be AWFUL, but there are plenty of better, cheaper choices.

According to the background, they're supposed to be a quick-strike unit, with hard-hitting fusion guns.

What do they do well in game terms? ?Die. ?And re-roll dangerous terrain checks. ?What is their role? ?To sit on my shelf.

In 40K, they've got an incredibly short range, an average ballistic skill, negligible armor, only a single shot. ?They've got below-average leadership unless you take a Strain Leader.

I appreciate their Firefight of 4+, to make them stand out from other formations in this list and be more attractive, and I know the Firefight value isn't just a straight comparison of weapon strengths.

However, when you compare the Fire Warrior's pulse rifle (S5, AP5, 30" rapid fire) to the Vespid's neutron blaster (S5, AP3, 12/18"?, assault 1), I would think that either Fire Warriors should have a Firefight of 4+ as well (those pulse rifles can lay down a ton of high-strength shots), or the Vespid should have a FF of 5+. ?And the thought of Fire Warriors with FF4+ freaks me out, because that would almost turn them into assault units.

I hope my logic makes sense, and the post contributed in some way or form :)
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:39 pm 
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0-1 Aux. troops, Works for me ... they support the Tau not the other way around ... like the Kroot. :alien:

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Xisor
 Post subject: Vespids
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:05 pm 
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I'm still reasonably sure there is a good argument in throwing the 'Tau Adjustments' into the Vespids. That is: Let them reflect Tau methods of war.

Make their 'ranged attack' more potent/present but at the expense of skilled FF values. In this manner we can have Epic Vespid formations which add short ranged attacks but aren't terribly useful in a firefight.

In going this way, I don't think they'd even need to be a seperate formation. Returning to previous discussions, we could have them as an upgrade. I don't recall first principles stipulating that only Tau can be adjusted whilst auxilliaries are as normal. If first principles do stipulate this, then I'd say "Balls to first principles!"

tv1013's points are well put. The 40k representation of what they do, much like markerlights were, is off. Directly transplanting it would be folly in our case as they're not quite 'right' in 40k!

(Re: Markerlights.

I don't think there is any fluff support at all for MLs *just* guiding missiles. That's daft, for one. They feed exact targetting data to tanks, they feed it to crisis suits, to air craft, to starships. If a Fire Warrior needs to access local targetting data, or has it relayed directly to his team, then I see no problem with it. Tau are known for good networking skills, afterall. And MLs do appear to work in this manner. As do Tracking Systems in BFG)

In terms of the scant background we have on the Vespids, it indicates they are far more (and routinely) integrated with Shas Cadres. If this is the case, then we can stick close to this by adding them as an addition to formations (or whichever option best reflects this idea). Whichever, I believe, creates good synergy between the Shas and the Vespids. It may be as the 'icing on the cake' or the 'ying to their yang', but so long as it is internally and externally balanced, we don't run into issues!

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