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Cadres
asaura
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:56 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Jun. 05 2007,01:57)
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I disagree ... That's pretty rare, that a Bn level formation is fielded "pure". The are only 2 type of combat maneuver Bns - Infantry (including, Light, Mech, Airborne, Air Assault, Mountain, Ranger, Marine) and Armor. Artillery, ?and Combat Engineers support the maneuver forces, and are not considered "maneuver" elements. So Infantry and Tank Bns are almost never, ever, deployed operationally ?"pure" ... they cross attach to each other. Fight combined arms ... So my Tau TO&Es include a mix of Infantry and Armor, etc. ... IMO Fire Warriors should be the base unit with Armor support. ?:alien:

L4, I didn't mean that "pure" battalions are the norm -- simply that they are used regularly. Poor countries use pure infantry a lot. Rich countries use pure battalions in special cases (e.g. airborne troops), which are special but not really rare.
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asaura
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:04 am 
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(Hena @ Jun. 06 2007,08:00)
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I still believe that the changes I suggested to Human Aux could help the matter.

Removing the human auxiliaries entirely from the list could work. I know it's radical and I know I've painted up a lot of them, but it would be easy to justify with fluff: have the Tau list depict a time and place where there were some Kroot but no humies.

This change would mean that Tau players would have to use FW as Garrisons. It would make foot-FW useful.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:33 am 
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(Dobbsy @ Jun. 06 2007,12:25)
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TRC - in making an alternative armour list I foresee that nothing will change in terms of E&C's original post. If what he believes is true - that FWs are hardly ever seen - then most people who have invested in a lot of armour already, will simply switch to an Armoured list and you still won't see FWs on table.

Well you wouldnt actually make a new list, you would just use the current one :) , maybe with a couple of units taken out (say humans and maybe kroot etc, make the firewarriors transports compulsory etc).

Such a renaming would then appease all those who insist my skimmer tank army of doom isn't fluffy.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:16 pm 
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Sorry asaura, I misunderstood. No offense meant.  Even in the US Army and USMC, Infantry Bns (of all types) are more numerous than Tank. Infantry Bns are "cheaper" to produce and are a bit more functional, in most cases, than MBTs. So that plays into this thread. Fire Warriors IMO, should be "ubiquitous"... :alien:

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:17 pm 
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(Dobbsy @ Jun. 06 2007,02:25)
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That is why the Eldar - despite the fact they are a dying race, have INFANTRY for their core.

This is true, but why then do we around here commonly see an abundance of ARMOUR (SHT included) in their army lists

Just call me Nerf-man. :p

Regarding the SHTs in Eldar (or any list for that matter) I understand that there are always going to be min-maxing going on with Epic.  But the simple fact is you cannot take an all armor Eldar list, the core formations are required (1:3 ratio) to get all those EoVs.  Imagine if you could take an Eldar list with Swords of Vaul as a core formation- would ever see a Guardian formation again?  (Obvious exception being to get the Avatar).  Surely the Eldar could possibly field all armor, but that isn't how the list was designed.

To bring it back home to the Tau, if the core formations aren't right, the rest of the list won't be right.

CS has mentioned several times that he is open to Tau variant lists.  The problem (no offense, Cybershadow) is that the Tau list already does it all: it can be an armored list, a well rounded list, an all infantry list, a heavy flyer list, etc...  There will never be another (well balanced) Tau list because this one does it all.  And it shouldn't.

Taking the human auxilliaries out will solve the problem in some games, but there are many styles of play that have no garrisons at all in which case you are stuck with the same problem.

Dobbsy, your statement that people will just choose the armored variant list all the time assumes quite a bit, first and foremost that the armored list will be 'better' than the standard Tau list.  IMO any armored list should have its own set of restrictions that will make it challenging to play.  But perhaps we should focus on getting the standard Tau list worked out then worry about the future lists later? :;):

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:51 pm 
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I think Human Aux. and other Alien allies are a great idea too. :alien:

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AndrewG
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:37 pm 
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I think alien auxiliaries should be 0-1 (or similar) per fire-warrior cadre. Would you trust aliens with fancy new guns near your shiny new tanks without an equal number of minders to keep an eye on them? Doing this would still allow people to take an all mechanised force, but stop them from adding in a bunch of human auxiliaries just to hold their objectives.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:40 pm 
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(AndrewG @ Jun. 06 2007,16:37)
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I think alien auxiliaries should be 0-1 (or similar) per fire-warrior cadre. Would you trust aliens with fancy new guns near your shiny new tanks without an equal number of minders to keep an eye on them? Doing this would still allow people to take an all mechanised force, but stop them from adding in a bunch of human auxiliaries just to hold their objectives.

Wow, I really like this suggestion!

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:21 pm 
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That's a pretty good suggestion for the general list, any more 'alien specific' lists - like the Gen'Shi - can have this restriction removed/altered.

I'm nowhere near my trusty copy of IA3 but what do FW give as force compositions for their Epic scenarios?  Does that help us in any way?

Orde

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:47 pm 
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Scenario 16 Tau Forces:

1 Manta
   Battlesuit Cadre
   2 Broadsides
   Gun Drone Contingent
   Gun Drone Contingent
   Fire Warrior Cadre (6 FW units in 3 Devilfish with 1 Skyray)

1 Manta
   Fire Warrior Cadre (6 FW units plus 2 Crisis teams)
   Stealthsuit Contingent
   3 Hammerheads plus 1 Sky Ray





Scenario 5:

Crisis Cadre (4 units)
Pathfinders (6 units plus 3 devilfish)
Fire Warrior Cadre (6 Fire Warrior units plus 2 Gun Drone Units)
Fire Warrior Cadre (6 Fire Warrior units plus 2 Gun Drone Units)
Fire Warrior Cadre (6 Fire Warrior units plus 2 Gun Drone Units)
Fire Warrior Cadre (6 Fire Warrior units plus 2 Gun Drone Units)
Gun Drone Contingent (2 Gun Drone units, plus 2 Heavy Gun Drone Units)
Broadside Contingent (2 Broadsides)
Human Aux Contingent (1 Commander and 12 Aux)

Reinforcements (Arriving on turn 4):
2 Barracudas
2 Barracudas
4 Orcas






Those are the two Epic scenarios, and both armies are absolutely dominated by Fire Warriors.

Hammerheads are very present in the book, but certainly not as autonomous armoured armies (Armoured Cadres).




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Xisor
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:11 pm 
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E&C: I believe Austin Powers said it best-

"Woopdeedoo, Basil! But what does it all mean?"

The insinutation of the campaign scenarios is, again, that Fire Warriors are common, not that they are the core.

Back to solutions, not problems

Human Auxilliaries definately appear to be better and cheaper for what everyone *needs* Firewarriors to do. Currently we're looking at Firewarriors with Markerlights and 2*5+ @30cm, yes?

Consider: 1*4+ @30cm?

Okay, that is making them *worse*. Sure, but it similarly allows one to make them cheaper, no?

Alternatively, consider moving away from the rather mundane (IMO) 'Guardsman-esque' Human Auxiliaries.

(I wouldn't want to see HAs lost completely, but it seems that is the way solutions are moving)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:22 pm 
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Fire Warriors are common, not that they are the core.


NO.

Fire Warriors are the bedrock upon which Tau armies should be built.

Currently, Fire Warriors are inferior to other available choices and are also unnessesary to the success of Tau armies in Epic.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:59 pm 
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Also a possibility to downgrade tanks is to remove the Leader ability from them.

oh for crying out loud!

We put that ability in because they are very vulnerable without it. It's not the reason FWs aren't taken, geez.

CS - let's give the three or four people who want FWs to be core in the list what they want so we can stop all these calls for nerfing every other unit there is in the list. It seems everyone has it right - Tau are broken and they should be push overs because they often get beaten by them because there are no FWs

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