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Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:58 pm 
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If I'd seen the IG you suggest above, I would probably advance to fire support range and blast those outside of forest (to augment hitting chances). And then retain and engage with second formation to blast them to bits.


You keep referencing coordination that requires participants to be prepositioned.  Every additional formation adds substantial risk.  You are rarely going to have a lot of unopposed activations.  With lower strategy armies, the possibility of losing strategy is real, even with Nid SR1.  Requiring retained activations results in more activation failures.

For concentrating fire. I've seen it done. It's not impossible.

You're right.  It's not impossible.  It's just difficult and inconsistent.

Slowing down can be done by putting a cheap formation in front of the swarm. Sentinels are very good at this. That forces nids to kill the enemy and thus waste movement a lot.

Why do you think it's important to slow them down?  If they placed their objectives correctly, they only need to get ~45cm in 3 turns.  Do you really think you can slow them down enough to stop that?  I seriously doubt it.

In any case, you're overestimating how much that will slow down a Nid swarm.  Slow units move to base contact to negate ZoC.  The rest of the swarm moves past.  The Nids will crush a small "speed bump" formation by sheer volume of fire even with suboptimal placement.  Afterwards they get the consolidate move so they still move 20cm instead of 30cm this turn.

If by some miracle the "speed bump" wins the assault, the Nids get a free 30cm move anyway.   How many players wouldn't sacrifice a couple of Gaunts for an extra 30cm move?

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:14 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 05 2007,18:32)
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(dptdexys @ Jun. 05 2007,18:00)
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Only by weapon type can you choose to shoot at some in and some out if cover (AP takes the -1 to shoot at troops in cover but AT doesn't and could only target vehicles out of cover etc.).

You're right. ?We just split them up as desired as a house rule.

In this case there were 3 kinds of weapons in the example - autocannons, multilasers and heavy bolters. ?The split could have been 7/14 with similar results.



If your using house rules when testing experimental lists it's going to unbalance the feedback on those lists(splitting by weapon types means all AP are one type not by weapon name).

I have no problems with house rules for games (they can add a lot of fun)but they should not be used when giving feedback on lists.

Things like house rules,house/fan lists as opponents and already knowing an opponents army could be why we get so many conflicting views on all the experimental lists.

This is not aimed at anyone but we cannot use games involving house rules or games when opponents have used an experimental list against a varient list to justify arguments about improving or lowering abilities for lists we are trying to balance for the GT scenario.

Whilst all the battle reports on the site are great and fun to read and may show a few problems with experimental ?list we should only be using blind games against GT legal armies for feedback involving changing anything.
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dptdexys
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:25 pm 
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Why do you think it's important to slow them down?  If they placed their objectives correctly, they only need to get ~45cm in 3 turns.  Do you really think you can slow them down enough to stop that?  I seriously doubt it.


It could be as little as 30cm move needed over 3 turns with proper positioning,GT tables are supposed to be 120cm between the two long table edges so the nid objectives if placed just in the opponents half could be contested by 2 x 15cm moves if the nids start at the front edge of deployment zone.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:38 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 05 2007,21:17)
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It's important as it prevents blitz taking. Most common conditions to win a game (at least here) are 'Take and Hold' and 'Blitzkrieg'. Also it forces nid player to waste an activation to wipe the Tyranids out.

If you've got the Bugs fighting themselves, then the battle is already won!

I assume you mean "Sentinels" there Hena?   :D

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:10 pm 
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If your using house rules when testing experimental lists it's going to unbalance the feedback on those lists...


The status of the rules is turmoil.  There is no standard rule set for testing experimental lists.  Do you use book rules?  Experimental rules as they are in the vault?  Experimental rules as modified on the boards and are the "most likely" form (e.g. Skimmer and Overwatch)?

The only one that's truly fixed (in the sense of being unchanging) is the rulebook as published.  However, lists going back to the Eldar have been tested with versions of the experimental rules, e.g. Cobras under the assumption the MW barrage rule would be implemented.  Another example is the Black Legion Cult marines balanced using the book "withdraw charge" ability that's probably going to be eliminated.

I agree that is a potential source of confusion but in most cases the differences are minor.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:38 pm 
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(dptdexys @ Jun. 05 2007,20:14)
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Things like house rules,house/fan lists as opponents and already knowing an opponents army could be why we get so many conflicting views on all the experimental lists.

This is not aimed at anyone but we cannot use games involving house rules or games when opponents have used an experimental list against a varient list to justify arguments about improving or lowering abilities for lists we are trying to balance for the GT scenario.

Whilst all the battle reports on the site are great and fun to read and may show a few problems with experimental  list we should only be using blind games against GT legal armies for feedback involving changing anything.

I could not agree more!

Very well said.

I would add that all experimental lists should be played with "book rules as published". Using experimental rules to test experimental lists is detrimental to the process. I too find it difficult to accept results from playtest games pitting experimental armies against varient experimental armies using experimental and house rules. What are we really testing then.

True playtesting process for an experimental army should be:

1. Opponent should be a book published, legal GT army list (no experimental armies or varients).

2. Book published rules should be used exclusively. (No experimental or house rules)

3. Opponents should not know who they are fighting. (Just as they would in a tournament)

Occasionally games not using this approach will give some good information (and might be fun) but on the whole the information gained from them will be flawed.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:52 pm 
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(Zzzap @ Jun. 06 2007,13:38)
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2. Book published rules should be used exclusively. (No experimental or house rules)

Considering that many of the proposed "experimental rules" and some of the army list changes, particularly Biel-Tan Eldar, have almost universal acceptance, playing "straight book" is not the perfect means of playtesting either.

The game is in a slow state of flux, the "living rule book" *will* be changed at some time and most playtester/experimenters have been keeping abreast of those changes so I see no harm in using those changes in playtests.

Lastly, playtesting of new (and old!) armies is purely voluntary; unless I want to play games against myself I can't force my friend who wants to "try out" some Titans to play Orks because "we haven't fought those yet". ?I'm still going to do up a battle report, I'm going to take things with a grain of salt, and I'm still going to learn things about the army I'm fielding.

Just as an aside, unless it's a specific scenario/campaign game, we always play "blind" in my play group.

If you are serious about playtesting and want to provide the most information, I highly recommend you use the "Game Log" sheets in the thread pinned at the top of the Tyranid forum to record you games and do battle reports; that way we can see precisely what is happening/interacting.




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Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:11 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 06 2007,13:52)
QUOTE

(Zzzap @ Jun. 06 2007,13:38)
QUOTE
2. Book published rules should be used exclusively. (No experimental or house rules)

Considering that many of the proposed "experimental rules" and some of the army list changes, particularly Biel-Tan Eldar, have almost universal acceptance, playing "straight book" is not the perfect means of playtesting either.

I think universal acceptance is overstated. Personally I have played a lot of games in different cities and in most cases I found players playing straight book rules. In fact I believe in GW sponsored tournaments published book rules are the norm at least the tournaments I have attended.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:20 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 06 2007,13:52)
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Lastly, playtesting of new (and old!) armies is purely voluntary; unless I want to play games against myself I can't force my friend who wants to "try out" some Titans to play Orks because "we haven't fought those yet".  I'm still going to do up a battle report, I'm going to take things with a grain of salt, and I'm still going to learn things about the army I'm fielding.

I totally understand this it is a hobby and should be fun as long as the results are "taken with a grain of salt". Pure testing forced on players isn't much fun.

I prefer scenarios to GT games myself as I enjoy games with a bit of a story.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:21 pm 
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(Zzzap @ Jun. 06 2007,14:11)
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I think universal acceptance is overstated. Personally I have played a lot of games in different cities and in most cases I found players playing straight book rules. In fact I believe in GW sponsored tournaments published book rules are the norm at least the tournaments I have attended.

Ah, I should have been more explicit, I was speaking about the smaller "EPIC playtesting community" not the greater "EPIC playing" community.

I don't believe experimental rules or army lists whould be used in an actual Tournament setting without considerable thought and very open expression by the tournament organizers; rule differences/changes could be confusing and detrimental to player enjoyment and should be avoided - a tournament should *not* be a playtest!  As well, unless openly discussed with one's opponents beforehand, I don't think experimental rules/armies should be used in casual "pick up" games either.

In a "playtesting" situation, however, all participants know the nature of the situation and the problems and issues that it involves, heck, they're essentially trying to discover those problems and issues!  So, to me, using experimental rules is specifically part of the process of playtesting.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:23 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 06 2007,13:52)
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If you are serious about playtesting and want to provide the most information, I highly recommend you use the "Game Log" sheets in the thread pinned at the top of the Tyranid forum to record you games and do battle reports; that way we can see precisely what is happening/interacting.

By the way, I downloaded your form. It is great and we will use it in future playtest games. A marvelous tool. Thanks.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Strategy and Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:25 pm 
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(Zzzap @ Jun. 06 2007,14:23)
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By the way, I downloaded your form. It is great and we will use it in future playtest games. A marvelous tool. Thanks.

Fantastic!  I look forward to the reports!

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