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Cadres

 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:41 am 
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(colonel_sponsz @ Jun. 04 2007,10:20)
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(Xisor @ Jun. 03 2007,23:38)
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What I don't understand is where this 'definitive' assertion that 'line' Firewarriors would be the core of an army comes from.

The background in Codices Tau and IA3.  See my earlier post in this thread for some numbers.

Orde

It's worth noting too that in 40k the following choices are 1+ for Tau armies (Meaning you always have to have at least one formation of them).

- Crisis Suit Command Squad.
- Fire Warrior Squad.



The Crisis suits are the Elites of the army, the Fire Warriors are the line-infantry, the Troops.

Maybe for smaller missions the Tau might pick only Crisis Suits or Pathfinders, but Fire Warriors should be at the core of every full-sized Tau army.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:22 pm 
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Make ?m 1+ sounds good to me. Why not.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:54 pm 
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(Soren @ Jun. 04 2007,20:22)
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Make ?m 1+ sounds good to me. Why not.

Why not? Because it's not done for anybody else, either. Epic is not about providing background for WH40K battles. It's about simulating sci-fi battles set in the same universe at a higher level. If something is X in WH40K, it may well by Y in Epic.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:00 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 04 2007,11:41)
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The Crisis suits are the Elites of the army, the Fire Warriors are the line-infantry, the Troops.

Maybe for smaller missions the Tau might pick only Crisis Suits or Pathfinders, but Fire Warriors should be at the core of every full-sized Tau army.

Epic battles *are* pretty small as battles go. At 3000 points, you have battalion-size forces. That's not big, not when you're dealing with planetary campaigns.

RL armies field battalion-size forces with no "line infantry" in them all the time.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:57 am 
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I disagree ... That's pretty rare, that a Bn level formation is fielded "pure". The are only 2 type of combat maneuver Bns - Infantry (including, Light, Mech, Airborne, Air Assault, Mountain, Ranger, Marine) and Armor. Artillery,  and Combat Engineers support the maneuver forces, and are not considered "maneuver" elements. So Infantry and Tank Bns are almost never, ever, deployed operationally  "pure" ... they cross attach to each other. Fight combined arms ... So my Tau TO&Es include a mix of Infantry and Armor, etc. ... IMO Fire Warriors should be the base unit with Armor support.  :alien:

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:14 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Jun. 05 2007,01:57)
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IMO Fire Warriors should be the base unit with Armor support. ?:alien:

And then, later, someone can do a "tank heavy" Tau army list like has been done for Guard, Marines, Eldar, and even Tyranids!

Remember, each army list doesn't have to give or have every option available.

Just to brainstorm, how would other Sept/Conflict army lists differ from the current one?  What other themes/focus could Tau armies have?  I don't think this is something that's really been thought about.

Of the current done or in progress armies, only the Necrons don't seem to have a lot of room for "variant" armies.  Even the Tyranids have two or three alternate option/organization lists, but I don't think I've seen any proposed alternates for the Tau.  (Nerroth's excellent Gue'senshi army doesn't count!  *laugh*)

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:20 am 
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That's true ... my IG are really the only army I have that can field Infantry or Tank heavy formations ... most of the rest are infantry heavy ...

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:27 am 
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What spoil the 'Tau empire' theme? :)

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:22 am 
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Just to brainstorm, how would other Sept/Conflict army lists differ from the current one?  What other themes/focus could Tau armies have?  I don't think this is something that's really been thought about.


Other 'Tau' army types:

- Kroot-only army (Kroot Mercenaries).
- Tau Armoured Company (Tank-based armylist).
- O'Shova's Crisis Suit-based breakaway army (He's a 40k Special Character who fluffwise runs his own mini Empire that lacks a lot of Tau tech but has more than the usual number of Crisis Suits).

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:37 pm 
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(colonel_sponsz @ Jun. 04 2007,10:20)
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sponz
The background in Codices Tau and IA3.  See my earlier post in this thread for some numbers.


Yes. The numbers you put earlier suggest that the Fire Warriors make up the bulk of the numbers of the Tau Empire's army on Taros. I don't dispute that they are often very numerous. What I dispute is that they are the core.

The core, logically, is the central component. The singularly important point, one might say. The reactor core, the warp core etc. They're all very small components of the greater thing, yet very important in the things function. 'Historically' and 'canonically' Fire Warriors tend not to be this. Everpresent, is the word used to describe them. Numbers imply they are bulky.

As previously noted, it is the commander formations that are implied to be the core of the army. In Codex: Tau Empire, page 13, under the section headed Battles, a clear case is put that emphasises the importance of planning. If my experience in planning is anything to go by, this insinuates that the force commanders will always be the crucial core of any Tau force. And we know that commanders are typically situated in battlesuits (though as we know, they come in larger things too, like Mantas, modified Orcas and indeed monitoring starships).

The case, therefore, is rather simple: regardless of what Fire Warriors are in the Tau Empire, I would argue they are not the core. Even basic 'line' fire warriors are only 'everpresent'. And even then, it isn't unfathomable that there will be Epic-scale Tau armies without them.

Originally posted by Evil and Chaos
It's worth noting too that in 40k the following choices are 1+ for Tau armies (Meaning you always have to have at least one formation of them).

- Crisis Suit Command Squad.
- Fire Warrior Squad.

The Crisis suits are the Elites of the army, the Fire Warriors are the line-infantry, the Troops.

Maybe for smaller missions the Tau might pick only Crisis Suits or Pathfinders, but Fire Warriors should be at the core of every full-sized Tau army.

As I say: No they shouldn't. They should be present except in very interesting alternative/innovative plans, but they should not be the core. The case for core stands with, well, pretty much everything but 40k troops choices (and drones).

The case, properly, would be that Fire Warriors should be desirable such that the fill a very useful role in Epic Armies, such that you are missing something very useful if you're not taking them. But they shouldn't be the core and they shouldn't be compulsary.

If they're to be a common sight (in fair numbers) in Epic Tau Armies, then it is because they should be worthwhile additions to the Tau Army, not because they're compulsary.

Similarly, however, the likes of Hammerheads, Pathfinders, Crisis Battlesuits and Stealth Battlesuits are all very logical items to fall under this heading and argument too.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:08 pm 
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Having only fielded the Tau a couple times (and played alongside them once) I felt that the list was overpowered. ?

Cybershadow mentioned ?that the Firewarriors seem to be in good shape stats/points wise. ?I agree. ?If they aren't being selected that tells you something - the alternatives are too good or too inexpensive. ?The focus should be in nerfing the alternatives, not upping the FWs.

Neal mentioned (possibly in a different thread) how the synergy of all these elements coming together make the Tau very powerful - I agree here too. It seems to me that placing some restrictions on tournament army composition would be a good thing. ?While forcing a formation of Firewarriors may not be the best way to go, IMO removing the Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre from the core list is.

I know, cry heresy if you want. ?I understand the desire to make the Tau flexible and that not every army is going to have an infantry component and blah blah blah. ?But this is simply for designing a tournament list in order to balance the list internally against itself and externally against other lists.

Removing the Armored Cadre from the core list would certainly nerf the Tau in general (needed change), improve the status of the firewarriors by default, make them comparable in list design to the Eldar (Firewarriors and Battlesuits <=> Guardians and Aspect Warriors), and make choices for the Tau player a little more difficult (also a needed change in a very forgiving army).

People who can't afford FW models can still go with the Battlesuits or use proxies. ?People who want to field all armor can work on a Tau variant list (mentioned before by others) or play scenarios or work out agreements for house rules.

And ultimately, armor supports infantry, not the other way around. ?Infantry takes ground, searches buildings, questions civilians, takes prisoners, loads ordinance, and is the cheapest form of fighting material in any war, period. ?That is why the Eldar - despite the fact they are a dying race, have INFANTRY for their core.

Let's see the flame from this post. :devil:





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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:21 pm 
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I'm all for Infantry based forces, supported by Tanks, FA, CAS, etc. ! :D  Even Titan support !  But I am biased ! :laugh:




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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Let's see the flame from this post.


I'm not going to flame you... I'm going to applaud you.

Questioning the existence of the Armoured Cadre in the standard Tau armylist was one of the reasons I started this thread after all.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:20 am 
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Arg, my skimmer tanks! *choke*

Is perhaps one option to have an 'armour' list (the current list minus a couple of choices) and an infantry/colony world list (kinda like the split between steel legion and armoured reg).

Its always struck me as odd that the tau list uses everything whereas the rest are split into regiment, craftworld, chapter etc.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:25 am 
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Ahh! the great nerf call! I could hear it coming from about two miles away when E&C posted this thread :D i was just interested to see how long it would take (8 days! :D ).

That is why the Eldar - despite the fact they are a dying race, have INFANTRY for their core.

This is true, but why then do we around here commonly see an abundance of ARMOUR (SHT included) in their army lists

TRC - in making an alternative armour list I foresee that nothing will change in terms of E&C's original post. If what he believes is true - that FWs are hardly ever seen - then most people who have invested in a lot of armour already, will simply switch to an Armoured list and you still won't see FWs on table.


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