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Cadres

 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:28 pm 
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I feel as TRC and Neal said, FWs, with APCs, supported by MBTs and Skimmers are a good thing ! Plus CAS !  Of course !  :)

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:48 pm 
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Justify for me the existance of the Hammerhead Cadre.

Justify for me the existance of the Battlesuit Cadre.


Fair comments. However, I would personally reverse this. Justify the absence of these formations. We should be creating fairly generic lists, allowing the player to build a force that suits them. As a general rule, I dont believe in force restrictions. In a perfect world, all elements of a force should suggest reasons to build a balanced army without forcing a player to do so.

Take Marines as an example. In 40K, you have to have your Tactical squads or Scout squads as core troops... nothing else. However, in EA, Marine players can select to take pure Assault Marine forces, just bike units, pure Predator armies, or only Thunderhawks (!).

I would fight to defend all three of the core Cadres in the current list, because they are the building blocks of any Tau force and because they still give the player the choice of a theme if they want. Of all of the army lists out there, these three as a core (in my opinion) work in one of the best ways.

Yes, it gives the player an alterntive when it comes to FW cost, but this is not why I feel that they desere their place in the list.

Is there a problem with FW's? I think that there are getting there but need a bit more examination. But, this is a completely seperate issue to the validation of the three core Cadres in the force.

Current background with the Tau is still fairly sparse. A lot of it does centre on the use of Fire Warrior squads, but this is certainly not the only way in which the Tau go to war.

The fact that we are seeing relatively few FW in Tau forces is, I think, due to two factors. Firstly, that the cost of Fire Warriors is large. For a standard eight bases, with five Warriors each, it costs 24 pounds (UK). Unfortunately, there is little that we can do about this.

Secondly, other formations may be 'better' in some way, such as more specific, better at a task, cheaper in points, etc. This is something that we can look at.

In general, I am reasonably happy with Fire Warriors at this point. I think that we are on a balance and any changes may tip them too far ahead. I would rather open discussion and compare them to other infantry types. I am still against returning Markerlights to them, and I like their current firepower capacity.

I am starting to wonder if Pathfinders are about 25 points too cheap. Stipping away their transports, the the four stands work out at 25 points more than Fire Warriors, for Markerlights and double-disrupt.

I dont think that Fire Warriors are far away from being balanced, and I think that it will only take a relatively small change to make them as viable in a Tau force as other units.

I think that the issue for me is that the Tau are a true combined arms force, and the Fire Warriors are a unit that performs well on its own, but dont necessarily fit in to a more 'global' battle plan on the Epic table.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:05 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Jun. 02 2007,13:48)
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I am starting to wonder if Pathfinders are about 25 points too cheap. Stipping away their transports, the the four stands work out at 25 points more than Fire Warriors, for Markerlights and double-disrupt.

I have one question about Pathfinders that I've always been meaning to ask:

Why do they get their Devilfish for free?  

Adding the standard cost of 50 points to add 2 Devilfish would seem to balance the cost of the formation a bit.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:07 pm 
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Fire Warriors will not be getting FF4+. Even with Markerlights, it creates a unit with Marine level firefight values.


Without Markerlights, Fire Warriors should be less dangerous.

With Markerlights in 40k, Fire Warriors become vastly more dangerous than Marines in a 'firefight'.

I think 4+ FF is entirely justified if there are Markerlights nearby, even if re-pointing is nessesary.




I think you're going for 'feel', rather than following the background in this case Cyber.





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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:37 pm 
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I think you're going for 'feel', rather than following the background in this case Cyber.


Feel is about following the background.  Following 40K mechanics is not necessarily following the background.  It's following the 40K designers' attempt to follow the background.

With Markerlights in 40k, Fire Warriors become vastly more dangerous than Marines in a 'firefight'.

With 2 ranged AP shots, Tau are more effective than Marines in a generically-defined "firefight" even if it's not the Epic rules definition of an Engage action.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:35 am 
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Maybe the firewarriors are at the right level and we are too content with the tanks et al as Hena points out with the humans?

If something like that happened - the alternatives became worse - would people take 'em then? In that case how worse would they have to be? At whats points value say are tanks worse than the current (with transports) firewarriors?

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:43 pm 
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A guy in my group is starting up Tau... he reckons that Fire Warriors would be more attractive to him if the Devilfish upgrade were 50 points, instead of 100.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:38 pm 
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What I don't understand is where this 'definitive' assertion that 'line' Firewarriors would be the core of an army comes from.

Almost every implication I recall asserts that Crisis Suits are the things that do the vast bulk of the important fighting for the Tau Empire. Part of the reason why, IMO, Commanders are in Crisis Battlesuits, and not permitted in standard FW armour.

Firewarriors, as the basic Shas'la, are a very mundane unit. They are, essentially, support to the heavier weapons. They are the 'infantry' that run alongside tanks as added eyes and ears, as it were. They are somewhat more versatile, more 'Jack of All Trades' than the more decisive elements of the Tau Empire's armies, but their worth is in that they are training to be Battlesuit Pilots, Pathfinders, Tank Crewmen and Drone Directors, not primarily in being excellent infantry soldiers.  

Okay, my argument is faltering somewhat there. The main point, however, is that the core of the Tau Empire's fighting force should be, philosophically, the Crisis Suits. At best Crisis suits should be the core, at worst FWs should be a compulsary choice (within limits), that is more redundant and 'reservist' than it is core.

I do, however, concede that at this level it is desirable to see Firewarriors having a valued place in Epic Tau army lists, even a common place. Ie it'd be good if they are a very regular sight in Tau Army Lists at the Epic level. However, I support CyberShadow's riposte that there is a far greater case to answer as to why Stealths, Crisis Suits and Hammerheads shouldn't be a common sight at this level.

They do make a logical core, afterall.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:08 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 03 2007,17:43)
QUOTE
A guy in my group is starting up Tau... he reckons that Fire Warriors would be more attractive to him if the Devilfish upgrade were 50 points, instead of 100.

Interesting point. The mech formation is actually very good. If the other formations are better does this support some playtestors assertions that the list as it is comonly fielded is slightly too cheap (i.e. without firewarriors).

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:32 am 
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Would that scale well? Battlesuits due to command purposes are nigh compulsory. But currently I take one then go for the tanks - so it would impact more at low points than higher.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:26 am 
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Thats true - though to be honest the infantry options for Tau are - human garrisons, fearless garrison (replacing plain FW), Tanks, pathfinders (replacing mech).

What do you want infantry to do in a Tau list? Currently I play them as support to tanks (pathfinders) and speed bumps (garrissons, fearless or otherwise).
The other role is as a main attacking formation, i.e. mechanised. But here tanks are cheaper, get leader, are all skimmers, all one target type etc and there are infantry equivalent activation boosting alternatives (bikes, pathfinders etc).

Given that foot infantry is limited outside of a horde that can deal with bm's (to the above speed bump) for me that means you have to look at firewarriors as mechanised infantry and there do they have an envisaged roll?

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:20 am 
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(Xisor @ Jun. 03 2007,23:38)
QUOTE
What I don't understand is where this 'definitive' assertion that 'line' Firewarriors would be the core of an army comes from.

The background in Codices Tau and IA3.  See my earlier post in this thread for some numbers.

Orde

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