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Mycetic Spores
Remove them, they are overpowered. 27%  27%  [ 4 ]
Leave them in, Tyranids need the extra spawning power. 60%  60%  [ 9 ]
Other (Explain below) 13%  13%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 15

Mycetic Spores
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:48 am 
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Are Mycetic Spores overpowered & unrepresentative, or should they stay in the list.

Go.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:11 am 
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Of all the potential issues with the list that might be combining to cause issues in the list, the one I would be least likely to dump would be spawning.  I like the relentless feel of it; the way Nids just keep appearing out of the woodwork.

I don't have a problem with spores, per se, but I do think they need a different name.  They clearly do not represent literal drop pod-like spores dropping from high atmosphere.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:00 am 
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Well spores don't technically mean drop pods.... think of mushroom spores - they come out of the ground so Mycetic spores can be this way too and would most likely have been seeded when the planet was first invaded etc...
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:01 am 
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If we're talking nomenclature, then I think 'spawning' needs its name changed too... since you don't believably 'spawn' new Hierodules during a battle.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:19 am 
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We need to keep this mechanism I think although I would not object to the spores cost being increased a little - after all you get to choose to use one AFTER you have made the initiative test to spawn so you are guarenteed at least 15 pts of gaunt back for 15 pts of spore.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:34 am 
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I don't actually see why this mechanism is needed.

Please justify why it should be kept.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Its needed because the current spawn rates/values mean that without spores the relentless tide of bugs becomes a pitiful trickle.

I admit that this could be resolved by tweaking the spawn values but I feel that after however many years of tweaking and testing we have just about got the values right (when you have spores in the mix).

Taking them out would mean 2 things - firstly we would need to revisit the spawning values to ensure that rates are kept more or less the same as they are now and secondly we would have no wasted points spent on unused spores (hey -thats a good thing! :) )

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Chroma
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:23 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 01 2007,10:01)
QUOTE
If we're talking nomenclature, then I think 'spawning' needs its name changed too... since you don't believably 'spawn' new Hierodules during a battle.

As explained in the Design Notes, "spawning" covers a wide variety of mechanisms that the Tyranids use to strengthen their swarms.

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Dave
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Would upping their cost to 25 points a piece help to alleviate the problem?  On average they should add an additional 2 spawning points.  At 25 points a piece that's the current cost of a Brood (2) Gargoyle and slightly below two Brood (1) Termagants or Hormagaunts.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:15 pm 
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(Dave @ Jun. 01 2007,14:06)
QUOTE
Would upping their cost to 25 points a piece help to alleviate the problem? ?On average they should add an additional 2 spawning points. ?At 25 points a piece that's the current cost of a Brood (2) Gargoyle and slightly below two Brood (1) Termagants or Hormagaunts.

I could definitely support a price increase.

What could we name them instead of "Mycetic Spores"?

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Dave
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:55 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 01 2007,09:15)
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What could we name them instead of "Mycetic Spores"?

Instead of a name change how about changing their description.  Mycetic Spores were always explained as a planetary assault method for the Tyranids.  It's not a huge stretch to say that the spores carry recently spawned brood creatures from the hive ships down to the surface to assist the requesting synapse creatures.  The synapse creatures are hive linked, this could be their means of calling for reinforcements.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:13 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 01 2007,11:34)
QUOTE
I don't actually see why this mechanism is needed.

Please justify why it should be kept.

It's needed for several reasons.

Spawning keeps a horde feel and effect without having to throw down hundreds of models.  This is practical both economically and with respect to the game mechanics.

Regarding mechanics, point and model density is important with respect to deployment and movement.  The standard deployment rules are strained by even a modest sized game if your average points per model is very low.  Nids have a further restriction on their swarms based on synapse range.  Obviously, Synapse range could be modified but it you expand it to accomodate huge volumes of minis, it stops being a real restriction once the game is underway.

Finally, with regards to model density, it would further aggravate Nid weakness to templates.  Maybe that could be tolerated but I think we've seen problems in previous lists when one army is particularly strong versus another, e.g. Eldar versus SM.

The other major feature of large volumes of models is sheer terrain control.  If you put all the potential Nid models on the table at the beginning of the game, they could easily dominate the entire board by virtue of total area denial.  This would mean that mobility-based armies would be disproportionately hurt by facing Nids because there would be no place to maneuver.

With both of those factors, you'd end up with a heavily influencing rock-paper-scissors metagame of army choice.  Arty beats Nids.  Nids beat mobility.

Going back to model count and terrain control, other armies that have huge numbers of models can be dealt with by means that Nids are immune to.  For example, tiny tim's 140+ model Speed Freek army (3000 points) can be broken.  Broken formations can be hacked down at a high rate by fire and completely eliminated by a follow on assault.  Broken formations cannot claim objectives.

Nids have no such weaknesses.  The sole way to beat them back is 1 assault at a time with a max 15cm withdrawal.  Hackdowns result solely from assault resolution, leaving the overwhelming majority of damage to be inflicted directly via to-hit rolls.  They can claim objectives even after being beaten back repeatedly.  They can be repositioned much more aggressively after lost assaults.

All these problems were amply demonstrated by the "Termagant Terror" playtests.  At 10 points each, Warrior groups surrounded by hundreds of Termagants completely dominated every army they were tested against.  A full blown on-board horde + Unstoppable is simply not balanced.  That means you either make it less of a horde or less Unstoppable.

Spawning elegantly mitigates all those mechanics problems.  It makes it less of a constant on-board horde while keeping the essential horde character of the army.

Spawning gives the nids a nice relentless feel beyond just being a generic horde.  You can hammer a swarm over and over but if you don't finish it off it will come back strong as Nids seemingly appear from nowhere.  A constant stream of beasts crawling out of every nook and cranny is exactly how the invasions are described in the background.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Spawning keeps a horde feel and effect without having to throw down hundreds of models.


I'm not asking for Spawning to be justified... I'm asking why the Mycetic Spores mechanism are nessary for Spawning to work.

Which is sorta the thread topic. :)



As explained in the Design Notes, "spawning" covers a wide variety of mechanisms that the Tyranids use to strengthen their swarms.

Yes, but it's a very misleading name...

When I 'spawn' a Hierodule, my opponent just looks at me funny.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:27 pm 
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Its needed because the current spawn rates/values mean that without spores the relentless tide of bugs becomes a pitiful trickle.


I very rarely use Mycetic Spores, and my Tyranids have an exceptionally good win record.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Mycetic Spores
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:09 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 01 2007,15:25)
QUOTE
I'm not asking for Spawning to be justified... I'm asking why the Mycetic Spores mechanism are nessary for Spawning to work.

Heh.  Whoops. :blush:

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