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[NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
nealhunt
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:13 pm 
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(Chroma @ May 25 2007,18:58)
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Honestly, I can't, even with my twisted mind, begin to imagine the wails of horror that would go up if people heard of "1+" Lictors and Genestealers!

I'd rather face SR1, 1+ initiative assault troops teleporting in than SR1, 2+ initiative, immune to BMs any day of the week.  The potential to place BMs is much more important than a +1 to activate.

Just as an example, let's take the Turn 1 "teleport suicide to keep the enemy busy" tactic.  4 options - either the Lictors get BMs in the teleport or they don't and they either win strategy or they don't.

Lictors teleport in and get a BM for teleport - Fairly likely with 3-5 units in the Lictor formation.  The opponent's already better off before discussing strategy.  Same activation, net -2 for the Lictor assault resolution.

Lictors teleport in w/o BMs and the Nid opponent wins strategy.  A single firing action and, again, you're better off than a single firing action under no-BMs.  BMs on the Lictors (same activation and net -2 assault res) and if you kill 1-2 (depending on formation size) you might even break them.

Teleport w/ BMs and opponent wins - no contest.  Counter tactics abound for the opponent.

Only if the Lictors teleport in w/o BMs AND win the initiative is it worse for the opponent.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:18 pm 
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(Chroma @ May 25 2007,17:18)
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Tyranids *do* suffer hackdown hits normally already.  People do realize this, correct?

Tyranids suffer additional hackdowns for losing assault and failed withdrawals.  They do not suffer hackdowns for BMs while broken because they are immune to BMs and don't break.

It's the latter exception I was referring to.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:49 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 25 2007,19:18)
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They do not suffer hackdowns for BMs while broken because they are immune to BMs and don't break.

It's the latter exception I was referring to.

Ah, I've never heard that referred to as "hackdown hits"; we call them "morale hits" or "panic hits" or even "blast marker hits" around here; the "hackdowns" only referring to the "actual" hack downs in assaults.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:52 am 
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How about this?

Independent Creatures have Initiative 1+ but suffer from BM as everyone else (they act independent from the hivemind so they can react very quick but won't sacrifice semselve so easily) .
But if there are Synapse creatures in 15cm, the Initiative is 2+ and the Unstopable rule is used (they are now under direct control of the hivemind. So informations goes to the hivemind and then back to the creature which takes some time and hampers reaction thus the worse initiative rating, but now they are effectively mindless, death defying drones of the hivemind).

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:12 pm 
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Neal,

Actually the change I was suggesting to the "Unstoppable" rule was this:

Nids take BM's like any other army during the course of a turn. In the rally phase they would automatically rally and remove ALL BM's. This is similar to the Eldar "Spirit Stones" rule only way better since NO BM's would carry over to the next turn.

This would make Leader characters unecessary.

The positives, in terms of game mechanics, would be:

1. Nid formations could be broken in the course of a turn.  

2. The automatic +1 or +2 in Assault resolution could be mitigated by an opponent with BM.

3. The formation could be destroyed if assaulted while broken.

4. Formations fired on while broken would take greater casualties.

5. BM's could be received by teleporting formations.

6. Small powerful teleport formations could be broken by opponent fire without the necessity of destroying the formation to the last stand.

7. Opponents would have a greater reward for firing at formations before they activate prior to an impending assault.

8. Could force a Nid formation to Marshall.

Please understand that I have a boat load of Nid minis and love the list. My desire is to see them more playable and more fun for non-Nid players to play against. IMO with adjustments to the "Unstoppable" rule a great many things could be brought to a better balance. Some of the units would need value tweaks but these are minor corrections compared to the problems it could fix.

Nids would still feel "Unstoppable". I have never heard anyone say that the Eldar "Spirit Stones" rule is too weak, in fact most of the time opponents complain about how powerful it is for the Eldar and don't like it. I predict that opponents would say the same thing about this new idea for "Unstoppable". And after all, isn't that what we want them saying? ;-)

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:25 pm 
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(Hena @ May 25 2007,17:54)
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Hierophants can be wiped out by a infantry coy on firefight. So they are not serious threat.

Please explain how an IG Infantry Co. should be expected to wipe out a Hierophant in a firefight.

My numbers come up with something more like this.

13 stands at FF 5+ = 5 hits.
4 support stands FF 4+ = 2 hits.
2 Ogryn (will say they got in base) at CC 3+ = 3 hits.

That makes an average total of 10 hits.

The Hierophant is DC6 4+RA. Saves on average 7 of the hits leaving 3 damage on the Hierophant. It might be killed if a crit is rolled, but that would be unlikely.

If the Hierophant did 3 casualties to the infantry co., and the IG co. had BM's (considering that we put Ogryns in base it is very likely to create 3 casualties) then the assault resolution is even up unless their is a Commissar in the Co.

So, in my mind they are a very serious threat and would likely cause more than 3 casualties. It is more likely that they would break the infantry co. causing it to displace.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:40 pm 
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(Zzzap @ May 26 2007,21:25)
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Please explain how an IG Infantry Co. should be expected to wipe out a Hierophant in a firefight.

By the way, Hena, I just reread my first sentence and it sounded more inflamatory than was intended. I apologize. I more meant to ask what I was missing. Maybe there is a way for the IG co. to wipe out a Hierophant in a firefight and I haven't seen it yet.

Please enlighten me if there is. :-)

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:48 pm 
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Yep, I could see what you are saying provided the IG co. has not been prepped first by fire from another unit and has no BM's. This has been rare in my experience. Most of the games I have played the target of the assault nearly always has at least 1 BM on it before the assault. It usually comes from another unit brought up to support the assault (which BTW makes the Nid assault far worse than the numbers I have used). This eliminates the +2 advantage in resolution.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:56 pm 
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(Zzzap @ May 26 2007,21:25)
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Please explain how an IG Infantry Co. should be expected to wipe out a Hierophant in a firefight.


2 Ogryn (will say they got in base) at CC 3+ = 3 hits.


First off, you would *not* do this... If you can help it, *NEVER* get in base contact with a Bio-Titan! ?*laugh*

In a firefight, the Hierophant gets an average of *two* hits, it's going to be vastly outnumbered, there will probably be a Commissar, and a lot of firefight dice. ?Without any hits on either side, the Imperials are at +3... only +1 if Blast markers are involved, but that still means advantage to the IG.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Tyranids 7.4
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:07 pm 
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(Hena @ May 26 2007,21:19)
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If any such things would be instituted. Then I'd want effective transports and long range weapons available to larger amount of nids.

This will not happen.

Jervis himself wanted no transports other than the two flying Synapse and 'Nids should *not* be a long range shooting army... at least not this list.

I honestly don't see "Unstoppable" as so, well, unstoppable... *laugh*  With all the experience against Tyranids around here, they have become *challenging* to win with; I think that's a good thing.  It really takes quite a few games to figure out effective tactics against the Bugs, but I like that they are alien and you can't deal with them like you do with "normal" armies.

Yes, "Unstoppable" removes a core mechanic, Blast markers, from the army.  That is tough to deal with, but it *can* be dealt with.  If we make Tyranids a relatively short range shooting, good close combat, poor firefight army without much speed, that breaks, but rallies well when swarms are big, but falters when they're reduced, well we've just created inferior Orks.

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