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Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?

 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:07 pm 
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Most players will find that there are aspects of 'their' fleet or commonly faced fleets have balance issues. Some of these claims will be unjustified due to player inexperience or unimaginative tactics. But who thinks the Eldar Corsairs are balanced? And is this due to player inexperience or unimaginative tactics? ?:;):

Obvious aspects of the Corsair rules make it hard to balance them, such as the Move-Shoot-Move style of play leading to an unparalleled reliance on asteroid fields, or holofields making bog standard batteries your enemies? favourite weapon!

I?m not suggesting that holofields or the MSM playing style be changed, even though it might make a whole lot of sense. I?m suggesting a series of ?slight? tweaks to help balance them but leave the nightmare that is at the core of Corsair fleet list intact!

Reliance on Asteroid fields

This unbalancing aspect can be calmed by reducing the speed of the 2 highest speed bands by 5cm when in Outer Reaches and Deep Space as there is a higher density of asteroids, and increasing them by 5cm when in the Flare Region and Mercurial Zone as you have solar flares and far less overall terrain.
This is the largest tweak I?m suggesting and only having played with these rules a few times I can?t guarantee they ensure fairer games. But please try them out and tell us what you think.

Cruisers

Cruisers are sadly a deficient addition to any corsair fleet, escorts are just far better for points cost and tactical use:
Escorts are harder to hit by weapons batteries, the bane of the Eldar Fleet (shooting at escorts means a right shift on the gunnery table).
Escorts are faster, able to make better use of the MSM style of play.
Escorts may re-roll their leadership test to pass through asteroid fields, a vital advantage.
Escorts don?t suffer from critical hits, even more important when you suffer them on a 4+!
The only bad thing about escorts is that they are all separate ships and so could in theory be wiped out by Blast Markers.
Should cruisers suddenly get all the advantages of escorts? Of course not, but compared to everybody else?s cruisers Eldar get no obvious advantages. Usually a cruiser will have more shields, more turrets and far more resilience, Eldar cruisers have none of the above (considering they have 2 hits less than a conventional cruiser of that type, the worst armour value and half the hits suffered will cause critical hits!)

Eclipse
The exclusive potential for attack craft is a major selling point, but Eldar aren?t desperate to defend against ordnance as they have holofields, also the shear cost of the Eclipse is too restricting to use it in this role (unless your holofields have been destroyed by a critical hit).
The Eclipse would benefit so greatly from 45cm range Pulsars, this alone would balance it in my opinion as it wouldn?t have to get in close. This may require a price increase, what do you think?

Shadow
There is nothing good to be said about the Shadow! It just doesn?t have enough offensive capability! Strength 4 Torpedoes does not feel like enough to be worthwhile; this should be increased to strength 6! This might be enough to give the Shadow enough bite. As with the Eclipse it might be worth increasing the range of the direct fire weaponry (weapons batteries) to 45cm range, these would suffer a range shift over 30cm however.

Light Cruisers
Obviously these have all the same disadvantages as the Cruisers but they have ?fast? escort speed. This bothers me simply because they are faster than the Aconite and Hellebore. They should be reduced to the Hellebore?s speed bands.

Solaris
What a dreadful little cruiser! The Aurora is a fine ship with a nice weapons load out, the Solaris on the other hand is so horribly under-gunned that 2 escorts of the same cost have more firepower! As it is a light cruiser that is fast it should have the opportunity to get in close to unleash those weapons batteries within 15cm and be guaranteed a kill (or at least cause substantial damage). Also the weaponry should be spread about meaning weapons batteries in the Hull and Keel! In addition to the 8 WB?s in the Prow it should also have at least 4 WB?s in the Keel (perhaps 6). ?

Escorts

As mentioned above Corsair escorts are vastly superior to their larger cousins in many ways, however the two larger escorts are just too expensive or have serious design flaws to be viable choices. As such the Hemlock and Nightshade seem to be the only real choice for an Eldar player.

Hellebore
What a massive escort, what a conflicted design, what role does it fill? In reverse order: the Hellebore fills no role except as a fitting ?leader? for a squadron of nightshades (with an attendant Aconite), simply because it is horribly expensive, and it has torpedoes which restricts its role and how it is used.
It also has a good direct weapon load out, being a Pulsar and single weapons battery. To use this effectively you need to fire at a different target than with the torpedoes, as they maybe destroyed by blast markers against shields, sometimes you have to be risky though!
It is a massive escort and should be represented as such in the traditional manner for escorts, by increasing its armour value! ? ? ?
Having 5+ armour would greatly improve the Hellebores lot making it far more appealing. As well as 5+ armour it should be made 5pts cheaper! ?

Aconite
This is just a little bit too expensive and oddly as slow as a Hellebore. This should be dropped to 60pts and given the same speed bands as the Hemlock and Nightshade.

Nightshade
What an amazing little guy! Eldar Torpedoes (or Devil Torps) are one of the most powerful weapons in BFG and this little guy has 2! Devil Torps ignore shields and almost completely ignore turrets. They re-roll to hit, effectively (meaning roughly) turning 6+ armour into 5+, 5+ into 4+ and 4+ into almost 2+ armour! So against armour 5+ you?ve got 2 lances that go through shields! Not only this, but the ones that didn?t hit could hit another target behind! Of course fighters are a bit of a problem but at least that means you won?t have bombers messing up your table with blast markers. And of course you do have to reload to use them again but with Eldar leadership it shouldn?t be too much of a problem!
Basically these guys are the best escort in the game for their points, they?re too cheap! They should be increased to 45pts.

Hemlock
I only have one thing to say about the Hemlock, it has weapons batteries on the model and it doesn?t on its stats! Give it 1 weapons battery, like the Nightshade. This also means that the Aconite would be a nice addition to a Hemlock squadron, and the hemlock would actually have a reason to be in a large escort squadron! No price increase needed, is there?

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:12 am 
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Well then, it?s me, so prepare?.

Most players will find that there are aspects of 'their' fleet or commonly faced fleets have balance issues. Some of these claims will be unjustified due to player inexperience or unimaginative tactics. But who thinks the Eldar Corsairs are balanced? And is this due to player inexperience or unimaginative tactics?    

All right-y?.

Obvious aspects of the Corsair rules make it hard to balance them, such as the Move-Shoot-Move style of play leading to an unparalleled reliance on asteroid fields, or holofields making bog standard batteries your enemies? favourite weapon!
Indeed, I for one, would find it better if balanced fleets stood a better chance against Eldar. That means no tailoring?

I?m not suggesting that holofields or the MSM playing style be changed, even though it might make a whole lot of sense. I?m suggesting a series of ?slight? tweaks to help balance them but leave the nightmare that is at the core of Corsair fleet list intact![quote]
Ho-hum, holofields do not to be changed that much, even when they have standard shields. Kinda pleased to hear you think it might make a whole lot of sense to change MSM! (Let me know what you think of the latest MMS?)

[quote]Reliance on Asteroid fields

This unbalancing aspect can be calmed by reducing the speed of the 2 highest speed bands by 5cm when in Outer Reaches and Deep Space as there is a higher density of asteroids, and increasing them by 5cm when in the Flare Region and Mercurial Zone as you have solar flares and far less overall terrain.
This is the largest tweak I?m suggesting and only having played with these rules a few times I can?t guarantee they ensure fairer games. But please try them out and tell us what you think.
I do like that approach, would even fit (slightly modificated) with MMS. I guess not many will like it?..

Cruisers

Cruisers are sadly a deficient addition to any corsair fleet, escorts are just far better for points cost and tactical use:
Escorts are harder to hit by weapons batteries, the bane of the Eldar Fleet (shooting at escorts means a right shift on the gunnery table).
Escorts are faster, able to make better use of the MSM style of play.
Escorts may re-roll their leadership test to pass through asteroid fields, a vital advantage.
Escorts don?t suffer from critical hits, even more important when you suffer them on a 4+!
The only bad thing about escorts is that they are all separate ships and so could in theory be wiped out by Blast Markers.
Should cruisers suddenly get all the advantages of escorts? Of course not, but compared to everybody else?s cruisers Eldar get no obvious advantages. Usually a cruiser will have more shields, more turrets and far more resilience, Eldar cruisers have none of the above (considering they have 2 hits less than a conventional cruiser of that type, the worst armour value and half the hits suffered will cause critical hits!)
I?m not really sure as I like the Escort>Cruisers for the Corsairs.  But, yeah, they could use a slight nod.

Eclipse
The exclusive potential for attack craft is a major selling point, but Eldar aren?t desperate to defend against ordnance as they have holofields, also the shear cost of the Eclipse is too restricting to use it in this role (unless your holofields have been destroyed by a critical hit).
The Eclipse would benefit so greatly from 45cm range Pulsars, this alone would balance it in my opinion as it wouldn?t have to get in close. This may require a price increase, what do you think?
My mind says: ?Mini-Void Stalker?. Good.

Shadow
There is nothing good to be said about the Shadow! It just doesn?t have enough offensive capability! Strength 4 Torpedoes does not feel like enough to be worthwhile; this should be increased to strength 6! This might be enough to give the Shadow enough bite. As with the Eclipse it might be worth increasing the range of the direct fire weaponry (weapons batteries) to 45cm range, these would suffer a range shift over 30cm however.
Batteries at 45cm is fine, 6 torps could prove unbalancing.

Light Cruisers
Obviously these have all the same disadvantages as the Cruisers but they have ?fast? escort speed. This bothers me simply because they are faster than the Aconite and Hellebore. They should be reduced to the Hellebore?s speed bands.
Agreed on the speed! Make that official.

Solaris
What a dreadful little cruiser! The Aurora is a fine ship with a nice weapons load out, the Solaris on the other hand is so horribly under-gunned that 2 escorts of the same cost have more firepower! As it is a light cruiser that is fast it should have the opportunity to get in close to unleash those weapons batteries within 15cm and be guaranteed a kill (or at least cause substantial damage). Also the weaponry should be spread about meaning weapons batteries in the Hull and Keel! In addition to the 8 WB?s in the Prow it should also have at least 4 WB?s in the Keel (perhaps 6).  
Nice, like the hull/keel approach.
Other idea: 45cm batteries (at strength 8) without column shift.

Escorts

As mentioned above Corsair escorts are vastly superior to their larger cousins in many ways, however the two larger escorts are just too expensive or have serious design flaws to be viable choices. As such the Hemlock and Nightshade seem to be the only real choice for an Eldar player.
?but the Aconite is my ?killer? and my Hemlocks always die first and never re-pay there value!

Hellebore
What a massive escort, what a conflicted design, what role does it fill? In reverse order: the Hellebore fills no role except as a fitting ?leader? for a squadron of nightshades (with an attendant Aconite), simply because it is horribly expensive, and it has torpedoes which restricts its role and how it is used.
It also has a good direct weapon load out, being a Pulsar and single weapons battery. To use this effectively you need to fire at a different target than with the torpedoes, as they maybe destroyed by blast markers against shields, sometimes you have to be risky though!
It is a massive escort and should be represented as such in the traditional manner for escorts, by increasing its armour value!      
Having 5+ armour would greatly improve the Hellebores lot making it far more appealing. As well as 5+ armour it should be made 5pts cheaper!  
Or the launch bay variant?.

Aconite
This is just a little bit too expensive and oddly as slow as a Hellebore. This should be dropped to 60pts and given the same speed bands as the Hemlock and Nightshade.[quote]
YEAH! Very good.

[quote]Nightshade
What an amazing little guy! Eldar Torpedoes (or Devil Torps) are one of the most powerful weapons in BFG and this little guy has 2! Devil Torps ignore shields and almost completely ignore turrets. They re-roll to hit, effectively (meaning roughly) turning 6+ armour into 5+, 5+ into 4+ and 4+ into almost 2+ armour! So against armour 5+ you?ve got 2 lances that go through shields! Not only this, but the ones that didn?t hit could hit another target behind! Of course fighters are a bit of a problem but at least that means you won?t have bombers messing up your table with blast markers. And of course you do have to reload to use them again but with Eldar leadership it shouldn?t be too much of a problem!
Basically these guys are the best escort in the game for their points, they?re too cheap! They should be increased to 45pts.
Agreed.

Hemlock
I only have one thing to say about the Hemlock, it has weapons batteries on the model and it doesn?t on its stats! Give it 1 weapons battery, like the Nightshade. This also means that the Aconite would be a nice addition to a Hemlock squadron, and the hemlock would actually have a reason to be in a large escort squadron! No price increase needed, is there?
Hmmm, with an extra battery I think it should be 45 points.

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 12:33 am 
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Other things that might need some tailoring is holofield saves agaijnst EVERYTHING. Say, a nova cannon is an area of effect weapon. A 2+ save vs that kind of weapons should not be as high.

In fact I would make holofields make holofields give a special save of 3+ vs everything, but that is me. Suddenly cruisers that can resist 2 or more hits are worthwile on their own without the need to start changing the rest of the rules.

The reliance on asteroid fields should be changesd somehow, but not that much. IMO there are other stuff that are more unbalanced against eldar. Basically every single item in the eldar is a special rule. The HA rewrote the whole way a cruiser works with eldar: weapons with special rules, shields with special rules, movement with special rules, ordnance with special rules. My question is: where are the NORMAL rules for the eldar?

IMO a fleet does not need specia?l rules to operate differnetly. With the eldar the stuff went overboard as to render the normal rules obsolete. In fact I think I would give the BBB to a games designer that does NOT play BFG with the eldar rules taken of and ask him to design the eldar fleet. It would work better.

I dislike special rules for the sake of special rules. Somehow we are seeing a move away from them in the last 40k codexes. I would hope that BFG would do the same, but I doubt that would happen.

Rant over for the moment, but I think that the eldar would do well with a complete overhaul. Nice ships and nice concept. Lousy real game design at best IMO. Your milleage might vary.

Aside, I still think that eldar are NOT a fleet that needs a review. Orks do, and DE would work with a nice *fluff* update (not much more need than that, unless normal eldar are changed). Eldars are made of wet paper tissue: elusive and disgusting, but cannot stand a sneze. I like that idea. They are still more balanced than orks, for example. No idea about the balance in the case of necrons, since I have no experience with them.

Still, if the HA wants to review them, I would still go for the overhaul approach. If not some of the core propblems will always remain. And those are the "more special rules than normal rules" bit, in case I did not make myself explicit enough :p

Cheers,

Xavi

PS: My sister plays eldar, and so does one of my friends. I do not have much problems against eldars in general (45-55 W-L ratio, I would say), but as said, suddenly I find carnages and playing with NOTHING on the part of scenery to be much more appealing as in my other engagements, and that should not be as much a marked an urge as it is now.





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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:16 am 
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Nice 'rant' Xavi.

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:08 am 
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Hi Guys,

Eldar do have a crazy ammount of special rules! This is the most horrible 'fault' rather than the individual rules themselves! But they do 'NEED' Special rules to even abstractly represent their weirdness from fluff!

Movement
They need the sunward edge movement (including the 180* turn before hand).
The 2nd movement is necessary because of the sunward edge movement, but it could(should) be done 'before' shooting. ***However I don't want to touch on this right now as its such a major change, maybe in a little while.....

Leadership
+1 Leadership is fine!

Holofields
Also a major rule that i'm not activly thinking of changes for right now. This really could use 'simplifying'. My favourite 'solution' would be giving eldar 6+ armour that can't be ignored. This would make them a little more vulnerable than they already are now. (note: this also means the right shift from weapons batteries is gone aswell, so WB's will still be pretty scary against eldar). This would drastically cut down on BM's and so make lances and ordy weaker than they seem (although they will more likely cause damage initially there is no chance for follow up damage from BM's (or slow down and -1Ld). A-boats and NC's will be a problem versus this! A boats can be solved by having a massive negative modifier say -3 or -4, but that's pretty ugly. I'd prefer it if they had to roll a 6+ to attack, NC would be 6+ per possible hit rather than the whole attack (as it's area effect). ? ?

Weapons
The Weapons are all special, even the fighters! This is fine as they are not complicated rules and are very easy to remember.

Critical hits
Damn do I hate the eldar crit table! Keeping it as similar to the normal table as possible is crucial IMO. So (same= same as normal crit):
2Keel
3Keel
4Prow
5same(Prow)
6can only turn in one of its movements (specifically the first?)
7same
8same, but reduced by 5cm.
9same
10revert to 4+ armour
11same
12same
The crits can keep their eldar influence for names and reasons for the effect. But I think that this would make looking at the table and applying the results far easier!
They'd still suffer crits on a 4+!

Boarding
I really do believe that Eldar should be boarded normally! (no save etc). It's your own damn fault for getting in the way! But then the normal boarding rules NEED to be changed as well!

Anyways, these are all massive changes and I'm not really considering any of them right now.

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:15 am 
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On the ships....

Really think that Str6 torps is too much for the Shadow? What about str5?

I don't think long range WB's should be put on a light cruiser (Solaris) because WB's (it's only weapon) should be used up close and personal and that capability is given by the escort speed.

You(black horizon) want to raise the price of the hemlock and yet think it never earns its points back? Hmm....  :;):

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:17 am 
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(Raysokuk @ May 04 2007,01:08)
QUOTE
Hi Guys,

Eldar do have a crazy ammount of special rules! This is the most horrible 'fault' rather than the individual rules themselves! But they do 'NEED' Special rules to even abstractly represent their weirdness from fluff!

Debatable to the core. You can have the same level of "wierdness" without using shitloads of rules. Let's see if tomorrow I have time at work to post something meaningful about it (it is 3 AM here now.... I hate deadlines)

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:46 am 
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Hi Ray,

Sigoroth held such convincing essays on the Hemlock I started to believe it works for some people....

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 Post subject: Eldar Corsairs what would you like to see changed?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:54 am 
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One thing that came to my mind in an atempt to think of making the cruisers owe up to the escorts, was to give the void stalker and the two normal cruisers armour 5. Might also work for the light cruisers. That would make them less understrength? I agree about the reduction of points on the aconite and the upping of points on the nightshade. I like holofields the way they are and i find that a viable tactic for killing especially eldar escort derive from the way holofields work: the more blast markers they move through the more likely they are to roll a 6 and blow up. I dont see this as being so much of a problem with the cruisers since a) they have more hits, and b) they dont move in squadrons so are less restricted in the routes they take around the battle field.

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