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Drones
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:35 am 
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That would mean you didn'y have to be at the front to recieve fire.

How about the 'universal' disposable rule plus int he notes section of the unit write may be assigned AT hits?

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:08 am 
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The whole thing about having to be at the front of the formation is another area that gets a few questions. At this stage, I am tempted just to say that a drone unit can be removed instead of any other unit in the same formation when it fails a save... That would be simple, but change things completely and be more powerful.

I do think that we will have to live with some complexity here. I cant add anything about the 'universal' rule of disposable since right now it does not exist and there is absolutely no guarantee that it will - particularly given Neals observation that the three instances where it could be applied all use different rules.

Given this, we will have to live with a certain amount of explanation. Essentially there are three parts to the current rules:

- blast markers and assault combat resolution
- drones protecting other units
- drones dont prevent garrison, etc

Any simplification from my previous suggestion would mean dropping at least one of these abilities, since I think that it was as short and clear as it can be while covering everything that we need to.

(Damn, where is Tactica when we need him?  :D  )

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:02 am 
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(CyberShadow @ Apr. 09 2007,08:08)
QUOTE
The whole thing about having to be at the front of the formation is another area that gets a few questions. At this stage, I am tempted just to say that a drone unit can be removed instead of any other unit in the same formation when it fails a save... That would be simple, but change things completely and be more powerful.

The whole casualties from the front and suppressed from the  back is an abstraction anyway so I don't think worrying about drone placement is too great an issue.  I've always assumed that drones are millin' and chillin' with the units they are attached to, sort of like a swarm of flies, so exact model location hasn't concerned me.

Then again, I don't play competitive games so I'm not good at spotting ways to muppet a rule.

Orde




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:01 pm 
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I know I don't poke my head into the Tau discussions all that often but...

If you are looking for a SIMPLE solution, give them the grot rule and make them Light Vehicles. Done.

From Ork rules for INF Grots:
Notes: Formations that include at least one Ork unit don?t receive Blast markers for Grot units that are killed, and don?t count Grot units that are lost in an assault when working out who has won the combat.

Adjusted for LIGHT VEHICLE Tau Drones:
Notes: Formations that include at least one Drone unit do not receive Blast Markers for Drones that are killed, and don't count Drone units that are lost in an assault when working out who has won the combat.

This allows them to be hit by both AP and AT fire and allows them to be cannon fodder for both types of targets.
Drawbacks include absorbing more of one type of fire.

Benefits include a tremendous simplication of the rules (you've just eliminated an entire special rule), a boost to assaults (you won't collect BMs for casualties, so all drone formations will only get BMs for coming under fire, which is fine with me since they are robotic and the formations are small).  This can get out of hand if you upgrade the Gun Drone Squadron though and you may be forced to eliminate that upgrade or change the prices somewhere along the way.

You also get to make your models stretch further since you can base them 3 to a stand now.

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Soren
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:12 am 
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Drones used like grots? Sounds good to me. Don?t sure if LV is right for drones, in 40k they always counted as infantry support and were never supposed to hide tanks from being shot at. Neighter they should do in Epic.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:01 pm 
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I think we could procede 'imagining' there was a universal 'disposable' rule. I thing really with it used more and more it should be in the main rules.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:11 pm 
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(Soren @ Apr. 10 2007,05:12)
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Drones used like grots? Sounds good to me. Don?t sure if LV is right for drones, in 40k they always counted as infantry support and were never supposed to hide tanks from being shot at. Neighter they should do in Epic.

I tend to agree that they should be for infantry only, but I was trying to come up with a solution that would satisfy everyone.

But leaving them as infantry would certainly make saving lives instead of vehicles their priority.  Plus that would mean everyone could maintain their 5 per base too.  :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:50 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 10 2007,13:01)
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I think we could procede 'imagining' there was a universal 'disposable' rule. I thing really with it used more and more it should be in the main rules.

I could see 'Disposable' Conscript Companies in a Cadian IG army list. :D

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:05 pm 
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Should we call it disposable?  I have always been partial to the term 'fodder'.  :;):

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Chroma
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:10 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 10 2007,14:50)
QUOTE
I could see 'Disposable' Conscript Companies in a Cadian IG army list. :D

I'm actually working on something for that right now!  *laugh*

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:19 pm 
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First up, I dont want to see Drones changed to LV at this stage. It would be a disadvantage to pure drone formations, and would require rebasing of a core unit by most players.

Aside from that, my initial proposal did stick closely to the 'grot' rule. If it can be reworded and clearer, then that would be fine.

While we could assume a 'universal' rule of disposable, I really dont want to do this until it is ratified. The speed that things are moving right now means that it is likely that we wont see much progress in the short term of any type. If it is a decision between pretending that we have a universal special rule, or creating force specific ones then I will fight the ERC for more Tau special rules.
:devil:

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:10 pm 
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With that said, making them INF and putting a note on the bottom of the Drone stat box would still eliminate a special rule in the classic sense (in other words, it isn't another paragraph that has to be referred to in the body of the Tau rules).  There is no 'grot' special rule under section 5.5x.  

While this would increase staying power for the pure drone formations, it would keep the drones behavior consistent through the army.  I.e. drones would not respond to coming under fire in the classic sense.  And while they certainly aren't fearless, they wouldn't be shaken (receive a BM) for losing a fellow drone.  The BMs for coming under fire could simply be a representation of the drones being unable to compensate for being under fire as a cohesive formation.  Rallying would subsequently be the AI getting a grasp on the situation and deploying.

If this is done though, there would probably need to be a bump in the pure drone base formation cost, however (perhaps to 100 or 125?).  Definitely leave the upgrade cost of 75 points the same means that other formations that typically take this upgrade won't be affected.

So a pure drone formation with an upgrade would mean 200 points for 8 drones that don't take BMs from casualties (a huge boon) and survive assaults better because of the same mechanic.  

At the same time, the drones would only 'protect' infantry when working as an upgrade.  You could still bring them in AV formations, but they would be more for screening and absorbing MW shots.  Still not a huge loss to the unit IMO.

Thoughts?

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Soren
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:04 pm 
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Drone formations who have lost many of their drones fell to MW4 in the last edition of 40k. I don?t know if this is also incuded in the new codex TAU. This was clarified by their "saftey circuits, which reprogrammed their behavior pattern in combat". So loosing their numbers already influenced their behavior on battlefield.

Just a note

Soren

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Drones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:12 pm 
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Historical note:
Drones originally functioned very similar to the way Grots do.  However, in play they made Tau too good at assaults (like Grots are a big boost).  JimmyG modified them so they wouldn't support assaults so well and ended up with a variant that was different than both the Daemons and Grots.

===

I added "Disposable" to the work list for the EA Rules Amendments.  (Re-naming it something else, e.g. "Fodder" can be tackled later...)  My recommendation for a "working" version would be:

Disposable.  Units which are disposable are not valued by the other units in their army.  [some flavor text as to various kinds of justifications] A Disposable unit does not cause Blast Markers to be placed when it is killed or when hit by Disrupt weapons.  Disposable  units killed in assault count normally towards resolution.  Formations that consist solely of Disposable units lose all effects of Disposable.


That's basically the rule for Daemons.  The net results for Drones are very similar to that, and I think they can simply substitute that mechanic without issue.  Grotz could Diposable, with a note that they also don't count for assault resolution.  Drones would be Disposable with a note regarding targetting/hit allocation.

====

I'm not sure about how to phrase the note for hit allocation, but an approach that would keep Drones from protecting vehicles (which they aren't supposed to be capable of) would be to reference infantry and crisis suits in the note.  This is still awkward, but something like:

"Notes:... Disposable.  Any hit which would be allocated to a Tau Infantry or battlesuit unit (Crisis, Stealth, or Broadside) may be allocated to a Drone unit instead, subject to the normal restrictions on allocating multiple hits."

The drones would interpose from anywhere in the formation, but you avoid all the if/then, LV/AV contortions.

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