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[Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:27 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 29 2007,14:23)
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Spawning Hierodules?! How on earth did it manage to 'go to ground'!

It may have been buried there, may have by hyper-psychic-evolved from a lesser creature (Starcraft anyone? *laugh*), may be a *dead* one catalyzed back into action...

"Spawning" isn't just making new things out of whole cloth, it's an over-arch concept of rapid Tyranid growth distilled into a single rule.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:28 pm 
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We haven't played Nids in quite a while around here, but compared to the multi-spore Gaunt-Bomb, the current spawning system is quite tame, steady, and consistent.  Maybe it's just the comparison to the previous system biasing my opinion, but spawning 6 gaunts doesn't seem a big deal to me compared to spawning 10+.

How is it any more fiddly than rolling D3s and figuring out what to buy with the spawning points?  If anything, it makes it less fiddly as there's times you won't spawn anything!  *laugh*


You've added another factor that has to be added in.  It's the exact same calculation as previously, but with negative mods added.

As a more important point, I think it will be forgotten.  "Oh, darn.  I forgot that I lost a point from that swarm.  I should have had 5 points instead of 6, so that should have been 5 Termagants instead of a Heirodule.   In that case, I would have used the Shadowsword to target the Dom..."  There are many other examples in which a small difference in spawning points makes a potentially large difference in the game.

Finally, I think this could change the overall balance of the army.  It's going to put a further bias against WE synapses because in addition to their current target-ability, they will lose spawning.  Based on a typical 3-7 spawning points, you're talking about ~20% reduction for a wounded synapse and probably ~10% cut overall (very rough estimate/SWAG).  At 2700-3000 points 5 Synapse creatures will spawn ~75 gaunts in a game.  Cutting that 10% is ~100 points of units not on the board.  That's only 3-4%, but the fact that those 3-4% of points can be used on units on-the-fly based on the current situation makes them disproportionately important.  My (again, SWAG) estimate on the effectiveness of the army would be equal to a 5-10% point handicap, which is enough to re-evaluate the point cost of most of the units in the army.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:35 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 29 2007,14:05)
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I think spawning should be removed entirely, points costs dropped slightly, and the army would be much better for it.

I think there is a huge difference in feel between a stock horde and Tyranid spawning.  Spawning gives more of a feeling of Nids continuously "coming out of the woodwork."  You can sort of predict what you will be facing, but you can never tell with perfect certainty.

A horde is much easier to face.  Pound on a formation until it isn't effective, then ignore it.  If you leave a few units around, so what?  The most you'll have to face is a toekn assault - maybe.  Spawning means you have to grind a formation completely into the ground because if you leave any remnant of it, you will have to face it again.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:38 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 29 2007,14:36)
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And I like the feel it gives. It makes synapses most important. As if you give a synapses 1 or 2 turns time to hum about, you have fully functional swarm there then. That's what the never ending swarms is all about.

I agree... it makes fighting the Tyranids at least a *little* bit scary and uncertain... which is good!

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:42 pm 
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So has no one had the game experience of an opponent's negative reaction to a single Tyranid Warrior spawning up six or so new playmates?


I have not had  any negative spawn-releated reactions from opponents since the spawning was toned down last year. If my opponent leaves a solitary warrior alive then he knows the risks!



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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:45 pm 
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(Lightbringer @ Mar. 29 2007,14:42)
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I have not had ?any negative spawn-releated reactions from opponents since the spawning was toned down last year. If my opponent leaves a solitary warrior alive then he knows the risks!

I guess the perspective of "it used to be worse!" tames some criticism... *laugh*   :D

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maruma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:36 pm 
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My only wish is...

Please don't weaken dominatrix so much before my first game with her. :D

I love domina's "mother of monsters" image.
I feel reducing her respawn ability again is not good idea.

About balancing wariiors and nexus groups, I have no strong opinion yet...
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snotgun
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:45 pm 
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Just a little side question: If the aim is to reduce spawning after losses in synapse groups, why not simply make the spawning value part of the unit profile instead of the synapse group? Wouldn't that have the same effect but without any keeping track of losses etc.?
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:17 pm 
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I've managed to get my first three games in playing as Nids over the weekend and my feeling was that the spawning rules worked very well.

In one game I managed to re-spawn most of my brood elements and in the other two, I finished with a large pile of nids waiting to be re-spawned.

I would definately leave the rules alone and not add in reductions if parts of the synapse group are destroyed.

As an interesting aside, does anybody else feel that the size (number of stands on the table) of the army is small. I was playing with 95 elements and regularly play with guard armies of the same size and ork/speed freak armies that are bigger.

Tim

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:32 pm 
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As an interesting aside, does anybody else feel that the size (number of stands on the table) of the army is small. I was playing with 95 elements and regularly play with guard armies of the same size and ork/speed freak armies that are bigger.


That's one of the reasons that I'd like spawning to be dropped / made less effective... so that points costs (And perhaps stats in some cases too) can be reduced and consequentually the size of the army itself on the tabletop can be increased.

Tyranids should be the single hordiest army in Epic IMHO.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Spawning degraded by damage to Synapse
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:33 pm 
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(snotgun @ Apr. 01 2007,18:45)
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Just a little side question: If the aim is to reduce spawning after losses in synapse groups, why not simply make the spawning value part of the unit profile instead of the synapse group? Wouldn't that have the same effect but without any keeping track of losses etc.?

This is a good idea.

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