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[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Something based on Spore Clouds 48%  48%  [ 15 ]
Something based on Gargoyles 23%  23%  [ 7 ]
Something based on Zoanthropes 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Something that uses two or three of the above 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else (explain below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Tyranids should have no AA 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 31

[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:20 pm 
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The Real Chris has it right - any particular method CAN be made to work. There would therefore appear to be little mileage in everyone going off and playtesting numerous versions of this or of that.

What we are plainily missing is leadership in development. We need somebody to say "Okay guys this is what is proposed - go test."

Until that happens there will be lip-flapping a'plenty!

(flappety flap flap!)  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:42 pm 
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I'm actually a fan of this open-development style... we're seeing considerable movement.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:49 pm 
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(Lightbringer @ Mar. 14 2007,11:20)
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What we are plainily missing is leadership in development. We need somebody to say "Okay guys this is what is proposed - go test."

Until that happens there will be lip-flapping a'plenty!

Actually, I did do that, note the "Experimental Tyranid AA" thread pinned up at the top of the forum.

That's precisely what got the lip-flapping *really* going. ?*laugh*  I specifically started threads and polls to explore the issues.


I don't have a problem with debate and discussion, but let's keep it cool and friendly... and go out there and *PLAY*... and then report.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:53 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 14 2007,11:42)
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I'm actually a fan of this open-development style... we're seeing considerable movement.

Let's hope it's forward movement and not drift...  :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:55 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 14 2007,10:08)
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It's quite hard to bring down a thunderhawk with just one spore mine.

Oh wait it's practically impossible!

Now if you had ten or fifteen spore mines, you might do it!

Damaged to the extent of having to pull out of the mission right? So how many??  One hit will glance a thunderhawk on average, and that would be very bad for a normal 40k skimmer.

However I am not familiar with the SHV damage rules, (or special damage rules for aircraft?) - that is why I am asking!!

Does it really need 'hundreds' or just a few? I don't care what the answer is I just want to know the answer!

IMO one of those (hundreds, or even dozens) means the effect is more appropriate to AA, while the other (just a few) is more appropriate to DTT.   That is the point!  :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:09 pm 
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The Spores can individually only move 2d6inches towards an aircraft target when their instinctual rule activates... so the problem is less the doing the damage, more hitting in the first place!

I've played dozens of games of 40k that included aircraft and spore mines... careful manuevering with the aircraft can keep you clear of the spore mines that the enemy has for much of the game, as long as your enemy only has 3 or so spores.

Also, in 40k a Thunderhawk is DC-3, and it has its own glancing/penetrating chart that's less dangerous than a normal vehicle's chart. Plus it can ignore some damage results with chaff flares etc.

So with a normal game's worth of spore mines (3 mines), you'd have to be very lucky to bring down a Thunderhawk.

However if you took nine spore mines, you'd have a much better chance at it. :D


In the fluff, these things bob about in their hundreds.




"As Commander Culln's Thunderhawk raced through the gloomy atmosphere the crew suddenly found themselves flying into a dark tangled cloud. Thousands of spore mines, drifting high, with long tentacles dangling grotesquely below them, were suddenly all around them like great fetid balloons full of acid, bloated and ready to explode. The acraft jolted suddenly as a big spore mine exploded close by and set off a chain reaction. One after another the drifting spores detonated, sending bio-acid and shrapnel spraying out, tearing into the aircraft's hull and melting its armour plating. The Thunderhawk's airframe was rocked hard, and rocked again, as one after another the cloud's spores spontaneously exploded. The pilot banked hard to dive out of the cloud but with the spores' long tentacles slapping against the nose and windscreen as the airborne mines homed in. The Thunderhawk was their prey, and driven by some unknown force the spore mines gave chase, exploding close by. The assault was relentless."

- Imperial Armour IV, page 44. (Grammar and spelling mistakes courtesy of Warwick Kinrade. :D




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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:13 pm 
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Chroma - I wasn't meaning to have a pop at your leadership so no offence meant. :)

I keep forgetting the sticky thread - just to be clear then, the AA you would like testing at the moment is the gargoyle proposal on the opening page of the sticky AA thread yes?

I get all confused you see what with the poll showing a clear lead for spores and all the other options being thrown around.  ???

This nid development thread is in good shape at the moment - there's more activity here than just about anywhere else. Lets keep it that way!

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:17 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 14 2007,11:09)
QUOTE
On thing. We shouldn't look at the 40k rules and try to imitate them. We should look on how it should behave and model that.

We need to know accurately how something acts according to the background, how it works in the 40k rules, and what problems there are with that. Then we need to transfer a general concept and abstraction into a level appropriate for the epic rules rather than imitating the 40k rules.  I think that is what we are doing right now.


E&C: Thanks for the detail!!  I guess either option is fine... so I'm back in my 'happy with either' and leaning towards the DTT again. :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:36 pm 
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(Lightbringer @ Mar. 14 2007,12:13)
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Chroma - I wasn't meaning to have a pop at your leadership so no offence meant. :)

[Darth Vader]None taken, Captain Lightbringer.[/Darth Vader]

I keep forgetting the sticky thread - just to be clear then, the AA you would like testing at the moment is the gargoyle proposal on the opening page of the sticky AA thread yes?

That was my initial plan, yes. ?But then the arguments for "Spore Clouds" were coming in strong so I set the poll up to check the thoughts of the Hive. ?

I get all confused you see what with the poll showing a clear lead for spores and all the other options being thrown around. ????
Well, it was a somewhat unexpectedly strong showing for the Spores. ?I've put test rules for them up in the "Tyranid Defensive" structures as well: "Drifting, non-unit, dangerous terrain, 15cm radius, 50 points".

I've got to head out to a client this morning, but I hope to post some more stuff later today.

And, yes, I'm heartened by the burst of activity here!




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:08 pm 
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I imagine any thunderhawks heading into a spore cloud press the triggers and don't release until the guns run dry or they are through.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:58 pm 
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To be honest that fluff material makes it sound like they're highly expendable in the sense that according to it essentially the whole cloud went up at once when an aircraft moved through it... If you wanted to keep pace with that then yeah, something like AA 5+ TK(1) might fit, but you'd also want it to kill the marker the first time it hits an aircraft as the whole cloud goes up at once trying to destroy it! Not to mention that it makes it sound remarkably easy to shoot them to pieces. Just blow up a few and let the chain reaction take out the rest. Anything with long-range AA fire should be able to accomplish such a task, which seems to counteract the whole idea that they're essentially invulnerable.
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