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[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Something based on Spore Clouds	48%	[ 15 ]
Something based on Gargoyles	23%	[ 7 ]
Something based on Zoanthropes	3%	[ 1 ]
Something that uses two or three of the above	19%	[ 6 ]
Something else (explain below)	0%	[ 0 ]
Tyranids should have no AA	6%	[ 2 ]

Total votes : 31

[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Markconz

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:12 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,20:56)

QUOTE

I would say that that one excerpt from a story doesn't count for anything. At least I disregard it as something that is written for story and not for fluff.

That you are willing to so easily disregard the most recent core background material that introduces the new 40K tyranid codex, doesn't exactly strengthen your position. Raganarok mentioned another instance. And it is supportive of gargoyles still doing something in this edition of Epic that they did in the previous version.

The only weakness those spore mines have in SOME of their current proposals is limited deployment options - which people are not happy with because it leaves the rest of the army completely exposed. 30cm circles of AA TK attacks are not as easy to avoid if they are defending something you really want to attack btw... I would prefer something like maruma proposes if they are used at all.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:28 pm

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Actually the most recent Tyranid book is Imperial Armour IV, which introduced the Meotic Spore Mine, amongst others.

Have you read it Markconz?

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Markconz

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:43 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,21:28)

QUOTE

Actually the most recent Tyranid book is Imperial Armour IV, which introduced the Meotic Spore Mine, amongst others.

Have you read it Markconz?

I read the meiotic spore page ages ago (and that swallower thing), but I am, and always have been supportive of meiotic spore mines as an AA mechanism ever since FW first raised the idea.

My concerns are simply same as Chromas - how do they keep up with an attacking swarm? If they are just restricted to deployment zones we need another AA mechanism (eg gargoyles). Also I dislike the proposed TK effect... (you may have noticed... :;):

)

In the meantime I would like to see some more playtesting of both spores and gargoyles.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:20 am

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how do they keep up with an attacking swarm?

The Synapse creatures ask them to.

Somewhere earlier in this thread I posted a quote from Imperial Armour 4 which basically said 'Either the Spore Mines drift aimlessly, or Synapse Creatures make them move into new areas'.

That could quite easily justify giving Spore Mine fields a Brood (x) value, as the Synapse creature calls down high-flying Spore Mines into position to protect the advancing swarm.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:32 am

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Hmmm...

Two people have voted for "Tyranids should have no AA", I wonder if they could explaining their feeling for this and how Tyranids are supposed to deal with aircraft then.

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Markconz

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:02 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Mar. 10 2007,05:07)

QUOTE

(Markconz @ Mar. 10 2007,00:12)

QUOTE

That you are willing to so easily disregard the most recent core background material that introduces the new 40K tyranid codex, doesn't exactly strengthen your position. Ragnarok mentioned another instance. And it is supportive of gargoyles still doing something in this edition of Epic that they did in the previous version.

I disregard a half a page story, yes. If that would be part the of the background text, then I'd accept to have a dilemma. And I disregard it as it would just not be physically possible. Wings just cannot operate like that. To do that you'd need some sort of biological jet engine... which while slightly more acceptable would make the army boring, I think.

Stories have creative freedoms most likely. They write what sounds good as a story and not necessarily pure for the background.

Damn I am getting sick of having to say this stuff... :angry:

Hena, I did my basic degree in zoology. Now I study neuroscience and I am used to people having 'common sense' ideas about 'how things work' that are just completely wrong... So here are some real world speed records of budgies rather than BIOENGINEERED WEAPONS...

fastest flapping flight. white-throated needle-tailed swift at 170 km/h

fastest level flight. red-breasted merganser, over 160 km/h. (this is a duck...

)

fastest-moving bird: diving peregrine falcon at 390 km/hr

Ok so lets assume gargoyles are no better than real world budgies - they fly at 170km/hr. Dive at 390km/hr. Still good enough for our purposes. I like to think they can do a bit better... Maybe 50% better thanks to millenia of bio-engineering. In other words maybe they are exactly like the gargoyles in the actual 40k background rather than the gargoyles you imagine, - which are some sort of sickly crippled Dodos by the sounds of things

Interesting quote (as in interesting rather than relevant to the discussion) from wikipedia:
The air pressure from the Peregrine's bullet-like attack plunge might burst an ordinary bird?s lungs. It?s thought that the series of baffles in a Peregrine?s nostrils slow the wind velocity, enabling the bird to breathe while diving. This feature of the Perigrine's nostrils, once its use was found, was mimicked in fighter jets.

Why am I even having to justify the abilities of imaginary space dinosaurs by the way? Just accept what the 40k designers say!! :alien:

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Markconz

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:36 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Mar. 10 2007,06:26)

QUOTE

Yes. But you have slight problem here. That's mass. The examples you give are good. But they are very much smaller. Why do you think the fastest flapper of wings is hummingbird. This allows them to hover. Try to do the same with for example a common pigeon... Gargoyle is a huge thing (human sized at least) weighting ... 80 - 100kg? The required muscles to follow the the Peregrine Falcon in it's dive is ... well quite much more what the aerodynamics of the Gargoyle could do.

Now for a dive, Gargoyle can go quite fast. But it doesn't help it to accelerate from ground to meet an aircraft.

I'm a biotech BSc, so while I can follow bacteria and genetics. I don't really qualify for zoology

Whoever said gargoyles are on the ground? But to speak to your 'mass thing', for years physicists said bumblebees flying was impossible... except that bumblebees kept on flying while they said it of course

(Edit) Furthermore if Tyranids have muscles powerful enough to propel 'bone' shards through reinforced tank armour, they can have muscles and wings powerful enough to fly faster than real world birds. Why don't you leave the bugs alone and go and pick on 'Void shields' (a physical impossibility!) or some other 40K improbability

If you want pure limited extrapolation of current scientific understanding perhaps you should develop Dirtside rules rather than Epic!!

The main point is you shouldn't outguess the 40k background. It is not our place to do this, so stop doing it!
Imaginary space dinosaurs bioengineered in ways beyond our comprehension :alien:

- get over it!

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Charad

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:14 am

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Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:59 pm
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Location: Finland

They protect that nasty dactylis artillery effectively.

There is many good points in every solution, but maybe those spores have greatest potential on them. but of course give that poor old zoan a macro FF attack.

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ragnarok

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:52 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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I've been thinking bout myotic spore mines for the past few days asnd I am wondering if they ae the nids standard Air defense unit.

True they are the only one used in IA:4 (or at least mentioned as being used in a direct way). However on Anphelion the nids were not in their usual enviroment. Rather than having a massive space born fleet ready to pile down reinforcements and then suck the planet dry. They were forced to evolve from a few land based creatures.

They had no fleet ready to consume the planet, so their actions, and what they grow, could of been different.

They were bein forced to defend a planet from attack, rather than attacking it. Thus the deployment of thousands of low maintinance spore mines that just float around, rather than packs of gargoyles that get tired and need feeding.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:54 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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(Markconz @ Mar. 09 2007,22:43)

QUOTE

Also I dislike the proposed TK effect... (you may have noticed... ? :;):

)

Well, I gave the Meiotic Spore Clouds from my "Tyranid Defensive Structures" Experimental rules at test yesterday in a 3500 point "Assault" game. ?

I had four of them, and my opponent had 2 Thunderhawks and 1 squadron of Marauders. ?Since "Assault" is played starting on the "short" edges of the table, I was able to string my Spore Clouds across the middle forming a "curtain" of spores that *had* to be flown through to reach my forces.

In six turns of game, the Spore Clouds placed some Blast markers... that's it. ?Despite the supposed "AA6+ TK(1)" effect of them, my opponent flew through them without even blinking: 1 Thunderhawk filled with the "standard" 4 Assaults/4 Devs and another with Terminators, plus the bombers. ?They all took Blast markers, obviously, but none took any damage. ?My opponent said he was more concerned about AA Gargoyles when we used them than the Spore Clouds and that a "1-in-6" chance was easily worth risking... you just don't fly through more than one in an attack and you just take the Blast marker for flying off the "wrong" edge instead of always trying to get back to your own edge.

In a "Tournament" game, my coverage would've been even more porous as it would've taken 6 to form a "Spore Curtain", and that's 300 points I'd rather spend someplace else.

Truthfully, I really *liked* the Spore Cloud effect, if felt characterful and presented a cool mental image, I'd like to see it make an appearance in some fashion. ?It certainly wasn't received as the "Wall of Instant Aircraft Death" that some seem to be making it out to be.

Gargoyles are still my first choice at meager Tyranid AA, but I really liked the Spores.

So, anyone else tried out the Spore Clouds yet?

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Markconz

Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Chroma @ Mar. 12 2007,11:54)

QUOTE

(Markconz @ Mar. 09 2007,22:43)

QUOTE

Also I dislike the proposed TK effect... (you may have noticed... :;):

)

Truthfully, I really *liked* the Spore Cloud effect, if felt characterful and presented a cool mental image, I'd like to see it make an appearance in some fashion. It certainly wasn't received as the "Wall of Instant Aircraft Death" that some seem to be making it out to be.

Gargoyles are still my first choice at meager Tyranid AA, but I really liked the Spores.

So, anyone else tried out the Spore Clouds yet?

Yes, and my opponent thought it was terrible! As did I.

Note a 'wall of instant aircraft death' is your words not mine.

My complaint is that flying through a spore mine field should be more dangerous to lightly armoured aircraft. Heavy armour should enable you to fly through clouds of spore mines with much greater safety, while light armour should make it considerably more dangerous.

Compared to other AA, spore mines are no better against flimsy planes than against advanced armoured aircraft. Given all the background for spore mines I am aware of this makes no sense. Also in terms of game balance I don't think it is a good idea.

What I do agree with you on is that they should be in the game somewhere... and you can keep your 'cool mental image' easily without having a broken rule. :cool:

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