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[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Something based on Spore Clouds 48%  48%  [ 15 ]
Something based on Gargoyles 23%  23%  [ 7 ]
Something based on Zoanthropes 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Something that uses two or three of the above 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else (explain below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Tyranids should have no AA 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 31

[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:15 pm 
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I like the spore mines as the primary, with possibly some supporting "potshot" kinds of attacks from Zoas or Doms - basically, luck shots only, nothing to rely on beyond simply placing BMs.

I dislike the Gargoyle AA idea intensely.  As I've noted, nothing in the background suggests that gargoyles operating near the ground are remotely fast enough to fly up and intercept an actual aircraft.  As far as I'm concerned, the Gargoyle-AA was never anything but a stop-gap measure.  Those that are high enough to mob aircraft are loitering about in a high altitude mob and could easily use spore cloud rules (or a close variant).

Spore mines, otoh, have both a real-world analog and extremely Nid-like nature.

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maruma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:16 pm 
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I voted spores, and here is a copy of my "simple spore idea".

MIEOTIC SPORE SACKS (naming from FW,but can be Meiotic Spores or any)
Perhaps Uncommon Brood?
Type     Speed Armour CC   FF
Inf or LV 20cm     -         -     -(or6+)
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
bio acid spore mines 15cm(or30cm?) AA6+

Note:Brood(2or3?) Skimmer
Points:Cheap(20-30?) if their attacks are suiciding/ slightly high(25-35?) if not suiciding

* If their attacks are suiciding, it represents all spores use "self destruction"attacks.
* If not, it represents "spores are many.some detonate but others remain".
* If they have FF6+, it represents the spore goes down and detonates on a ground enemy.
* Skimmer represents they are floating, and always can FF if they have it.
(Popup or Overwatch are meanless for them)
* They should have no ZOC...? (or have ZOC for less special rules?)


[Concerning "AA Umbrella"]
Spore units of my version should be slightly expensive than other commmon broods (points and spawn costs).
If you try to have "Perfect AA umbrella" for each formation, your army become pretty weaken.
You should put small number of them on tacticaly important formations.
And always you must decide to re-spawn AA spores or more effective broods, because spores are almost useless other than AA, and 2 or 3 common broods are far effective for ground battle.

On the other hand...
If Gargoyles have AA, I feel it is more "AA Umbrella" like.
If enemy aircrafts are active, your choice may be always re-spawn gargoyles. They can die at AA attacks, but you may keep it for other uses.
You can have small AA umbrellas on all formations, at relatively cheap costs.


[Other AA]
I can imagine Dominatrix's warp blast has AA ability.
(Like Plasma Bugs from Starship Troopers?)
She is important for hive mind, and her mental energy is great.
I wonder Zoan's warp blast should be such great or not.
But it characterize Zoan well, so not bad idea anyway.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:45 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,17:10)
QUOTE
For the reasons listed there, the difficult terrain is a very good prospect.

Hena, do you have a response to the contention that this is essentially an AA6+ TK(1) attack against every aircraft that flies through it?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Perhaps allow the Mycetic Spores to do something like drift 2D6cm at the start of each turn in a direction decided by the 'nid player (To represent that they have some degree of self-controlled movement). I dunno if I really like it as a dangerous terrain test, exactly. It makes multi-DC especially reinforced armor aircraft easier to kill. I'd be much happier with something like "AA 6+, Make 1 Attack against any enemy aircraft moving inside range". That way they'd still get armor saves, but you'd retain the ability to blow away whole units of bommaz in a single pass.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:49 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Mar. 09 2007,17:46)
QUOTE
Perhaps allow the Mycetic Spores to do something like drift 2D6cm at the start of each turn in a direction decided by the 'nid player (To represent that they have some degree of self-controlled movement).

If there *is* drift, I think it needs to be in the End Phase, particularly at the *start* of the End Phase so that the Clouds could "chase" aircraft squadrons before their disengagement moves.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:10 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,17:56)
QUOTE
That said, I don't know full answer yet. I have planned to schedule a game against what we here call 'Nicodemuses Flying Circus' which is something like 12 Fighta Bommaz and 2 Landas. That should give some indication on how capable the clouds are. If someone else has time to test that though I'd be happy to hear about it.

I look forward to that report!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:21 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,18:19)
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Heh. I said planned as in I want to play such a game. Possibly in few weeks we might be able to play it as well :D.

*sigh*

Well, can you send me a version of Nicodemus's list and the list you'd like to fight against it and I'll see if I can fit in a playtest?

We're trying to wrap up the "Red Queen Rising" campaign at the moment as well, so, while there's gaming, it isn't always "playtest" related!  :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:50 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Mar. 09 2007,17:46)
QUOTE
It makes multi-DC especially reinforced armor aircraft easier to kill.

Multi-DC units don't check multiple times for difficult terrain.

I consider it one of the advantages of the "difficult terrain" concept that big, WE aircraft can more or less bully their way through to their target if they have to.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:26 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 09 2007,18:50)
QUOTE

(Ilushia @ Mar. 09 2007,17:46)
QUOTE
It makes multi-DC especially reinforced armor aircraft easier to kill.

Multi-DC units don't check multiple times for difficult terrain.

I consider it one of the advantages of the "difficult terrain" concept that big, WE aircraft can more or less bully their way through to their target if they have to.

Their Reinforced armour counts for nothing.  It is deadly.
Why do people insist that AA6+ TK1 spore mines are ok and justified by the background? (actually its worse than that because they attack EVERYTHING in a formation and cannot be killed or even supressed!).  Best AA in the game goes to tyranids - why?

Nealhunt re your point that gargoyles can't 'zoom up to where planes are' - EA is a game of abstraction and it is surely assumed that gargoyles are swooping and zooming around where their swarm is located rather than sitting statically 'on the ground'. However EVEN if that wasn't the case... if planes are coming in to stormbolter something there is plenty of time for gargoyles (which according to the background have a speed measured in hundred of km/hr) to intercept the incoming planes flight path.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:06 pm 
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I've swung around to really liking the DTT rule, rather than 'AA 6+ shot at every enemy aircraft', just as long as the Spore's AA radius was on the order of 15-20cm.


At the start of the game at least, the Tyranid player would have AA only on his deployment lines and around a few objectives.

Maybe later in the game he could spawn a few (In the end phase of each turn), but the moment that formation activates, it's left its AA cover behind again!


In essence, a tyranid army that used spore mines for its AA would always be racing ahead of its AA umbrella, with the mines 'drifiting' slowly along behind, or worse, failing to spawn and leaving a swarm completely unprotected!


AA Spore Mines would be the weakest AA in the game, being entirely passive in nature.

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