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[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Something based on Spore Clouds 48%  48%  [ 15 ]
Something based on Gargoyles 23%  23%  [ 7 ]
Something based on Zoanthropes 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Something that uses two or three of the above 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else (explain below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Tyranids should have no AA 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 31

[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
BlackLegion
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:00 pm 
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I'm for Meiotic Spores AND Gargoyles.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:01 pm 
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During its initial attack, a Gargoyle can only hit an aircraft that has gotten withing "Storm Bolter" range... that's 15cm in game terms, that's pretty close to the ground, so I don't see why Gargoyles wouldn't be swarming at that altitude.


Sorry, but I just can't see it as an intentional tactic.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:10 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,11:21)
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Gargoyles are zooming around at the speed of eldar jetbikes (faster than the fastest superbike today presumably).


And Eldar Jetbikes move at what, 35cm per turn?

That's the same speed as a Space Marine Bike.

Heck, they move slower than a charging horse! :D

Movement speeds in Epic represent ordering formations around on a battlefield, not exactly how fast something is! Don't tell me you really believe that no vehicle in epic has a max speed of more than about 20-30km  an hour? Which is what your logic would lead you to conclude if you compare the 35cm of vehicles to 15cm moves of infantry or the 20cm moves of cavalry!  :laugh:  Remember the abstraction level and what everything really represents.

The fluff and background clearly shows jetbikes and gargoyles moving REALLY fast.

Also AI and FW is just one angle on things - don't use it exclusively when it so clearly contradicts other sources which are more core.  :;):

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,13:01)
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Sorry, but I just can't see it as an intentional tactic.

Think of Brood creatures, particularly Common ones as "ammunition" and you wouldn't be far off.

That's how it's an "intentional tactic", the Hive Mind uses the completely expendable Gargoyles as a "living shield", simple as that.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:16 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 09 2007,12:11)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,13:01)
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Sorry, but I just can't see it as an intentional tactic.

Think of Brood creatures, particularly Common ones as "ammunition" and you wouldn't be far off.

That's how it's an "intentional tactic", the Hive Mind uses the completely expendable Gargoyles as a "living shield", simple as that.

Exactly - gaunts are totally expendable. The hive mind sacrifices them just to waste enemy bullets.  Crashing a few into aircraft is Totally Tyranid ™ :cool:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Also AI and FW is just one angle on things - don't use it exclusively when it so clearly contradicts other sources which are more core.


I'm happy to refer to any piece of background or rules etc.

And the rules of both Epic and 40k have Jetbikes moving at exactly the same speed as Marine bikes...


Remember the abstraction level and what everything really represents.

I'm well aware that the speeds in Epic represent 'operational' speeds rather than 'optimum' speeds.


I'm just concerned that proposing Gargoyles as AA is the reverse of this... an 'optimum' result (Gargoyles routinely jumping down the jet's engines) that's being assumed to be the 'operational' norm, when the fluff quite clearly states that Spore Mines are the normal ('operational') Tyranid method of AA defense.


Gargoyles acted as AA in Epic's 3rd edition because noone had come up with a 'proper' Tyranid AA beast.

Now they have...




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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:31 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,12:17)
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Remember the abstraction level and what everything really represents.


I'm well aware that the speeds in Epic represent 'operational' speeds rather than 'optimum' speeds.


Which is why you compared move characteristics and stated that a charging horse is faster than a jetbike... ?  :p  :;):



I'm just concerned that proposing Gargoyles as AA is the reverse of this... an 'optimum' result (Gargoyles routinely jumping down the jet's engines) that's being assumed to be the 'operational' norm, when the fluff quite clearly states that Spore Mines are the normal ('operational') Tyranid method of AA defense.

I wouldn't say it is routine... we are proposing a limited harassment ability for gargoyles (single AA6+) not a killer AA ability.

I think spore mines are an effective AA mechanism, but I think Gargoyles are a good AA mechanism for an attacking tyranid army.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:34 pm 
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I think spore mines are an effective AA mechanism, but  but I think Gargoyles are a good AA mechanism for an attacking tyranid army.


And I think that using Gargoyles as an intentional AA mechanism is a sub-optimum solution, for a whole bunch of reasons.

Let's see how the vote goes.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:41 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,12:34)
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Let's see how the vote goes.

The vote is irrelevant if people were coming into it with poor information. Who are these people voting and what are their reasons for choosing?  Misunderstanding of 40K background = nonsensical vote.

Epic rule development is not a democracy. - JJ    :cool:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:49 pm 
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Misunderstanding of 40K background = nonsensical vote.


It's all about interpretation.


For example, I've interpreted the background differently to you, and arrived at a different result.


Does that mean I have the duty to say your vote is nonsensical?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:51 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,13:49)
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Does that mean I have the duty to say your vote is nonsensical?

Yes... yes it does... and then you must each grab a broom and try to knock the other off the Internet... into the mud...  yes, that's how we'll decide all things here from now on!   :D

Friendly debate ladies and gentlemen, keep it friendly.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:54 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,12:49)
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Misunderstanding of 40K background = nonsensical vote.


It's all about interpretation.


For example, I've interpreted the background differently to you, and arrived at a different result.


Does that mean I have the duty to say your vote is nonsensical?

Well you should definitely argue your case! So if you think that is a 'duty' I guess so...  :)

My concern was that you interpreted the background in a way that just completely contradicts/ignores the background

You:

You're asking something that flies at about the speed a man runs...

Actual 40K background:

Faeruthriel and her squadron careened alongside the fractured glassaic domes, the smooth lines of their jetbikes cutting through the spore-choked air. The designs on the dome walls blurred into one, but still the loathsome winged tryanids pursuing them kept pace. She banked sharply as a tell-tale buzzing indicated another incoming volley of flesh-beetles disgorged from the Tyranids' weapon-beasts, her squad following in perfect synchronisation before diving through a splintered archway. Lherian convulsed as a pair of shiny borer-beasts burrowed into his back, and he smashed into the delicate dome walls with a loud crack.  (pg 3 Codex Tyranids)

= Discrepancy...  ???

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:59 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 09 2007,12:51)
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Friendly debate ladies and gentlemen, keep it friendly.

It is as far as I'm aware...  Apols if it comes across blunter than intended to be.  :blush:

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:15 pm 
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(Markconz @ Mar. 09 2007,13:59)
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(Chroma @ Mar. 09 2007,12:51)
QUOTE
Friendly debate ladies and gentlemen, keep it friendly.

It is as far as I'm aware... ?Apols if it comes across blunter than intended to be. ?:blush:

No worries, just wanted to head things off before they started.

Carry on!

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