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War Engines
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:50 am 
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Yeah the 40k Tyranid Regeneration system is:

- Roll as many D6 as you've lost wounds.
- Any 6's regain a wound.

It may not be the most elegant solution, but it does have simplicity on its side.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:42 am 
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Morning all

Okay so if I understand this right today the problem is with the fact that 3DC creatures appear to benefit too much from the 1/2DC rounded up method with a 5+ to regenerate (66% chance of regenerating 1DC) and that rounded down only gives them a 33% chance of getting back 1DC which is considered too low. Also we have the issue that rounding down gives 3DC creatures no different a chance than a 2DC critter.

The only way to address this without changing the entire mechnism is to have them roll 1d6 per DC and regenerate on a 6+.

This would give a hierodule a 50% chance of getting 1DC back in the end phase (rather than a 66% chance) and a Trygon a 33% chance of recovering 1DC.

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Reaver
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:48 am 
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I'd suggest roll 1d6 per point of DC REMAINING, and regenerate one DC on a 5+. (or even a 4+) That way heavily wounded Nids don't regenerate as well as lightly wounded ones.  It also makes it worth pumping loads of firepower into a BioTitan in the hopes that if you don't kill it, at least you weaken it's Regenerative abilities.

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Markconz
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:09 am 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,08:59)
QUOTE
No one has said that 1 dice is too low.

I have. :cool:

Frankly what we have here is a slight rules quirk. The options to fix it are worse than the 'problem' the rules quirk produces IMO.  The most elegant solution is sometimes to just do nothing.

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Markconz
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:38 am 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,09:29)
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But I think that it's just wrong to allow them to be able to regenerate 1 damage with over 50% chance per turn.

I agree it's wrong (though so would only one regen die be)... but Epic is not about perfection. It is about what works best. It is about clean playable rules, and a major principle of Jervis is that there should not be exceptions to general procedures like rounding. You always round things up in epic no matter what the circumstance.

Do we really need to introduce some sort of special mechanism just because a hierodule has a little better chance of regenerating? (17% better than other bug WE...). One in six instances the hierodule will be a little better off. I don't think that warrants a rules overhaul.  :;):

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Markconz
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:01 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,09:49)
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Well when it was just one bug, I'd live with it. But it's 4 at this point (GSN, Harridan, Hierodules both) and that is rather large amount...

Assuming they are wounded every turn, and somehow survive critical chances and just being killed outright by accumulated damage, that is an extra damage point back once per game on average, (or one less back if regen was rounded down). So those beasties have a VERY slightly greater resilience to damage in perfect circumstances - just accept that as part of their character  :)

I just don't think this is enough of a big deal to be making such a fuss about  :p  :;):

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:05 pm 
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Okay bear with me here as I think and type at the same time..... imagine you have hit a hydraphant and caused 2 hits - you have left him bleeding with 6DC left.

If you are rolling 1d6 per DC left and regenerating on a 4+ you would expect to get back 3DC.

If you are rolling 1d6 per DC left and regenerating on a 5+ you would expect to get back 2DC.

If you were rolling 1d6 per STARTING DC and regenerating on a 6+ you would expect to get back 1.3 DC.

If the same Hydraphant had taken 4 points of damage then ...

If you are rolling 1d6 per DC left and regenerating on a 4+ you would expect to get back 2DC.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
If you are rolling 1d6 per DC left and regenerating on a 5+ you would expect to get back 1.33DC.

If you were rolling 1d6 per STARTING DC and regenerating on a 6+ you would expect to get back 1.3 DC.

So half dead the chances between starting DC 6+ are the same as remaining DC 5+.


Another example - a Hierodule has taken 1 point of damage.

If you are rolling 1d6 per DC left and regenerating on a 4+ you would expect to get back 1DC.

If you are rolling 1d6 per DC left and regenerating on a 5+ you would expect to get back 0.66DC

If you were rolling 1d6 per STARTING DC and regenerating on a 6+ you would expect to get back 0.5DC.

For Hierodules and Trygons the differences are as follows...

If 1 would is taken a Hierodule has a slightly better chance of recovering using the DC left on a 5+ method (0.66) compared to the starting DC on a 6+ (0.5). If it has taken 2 wounds then it has a slightly better chance of recovering a DC using the starting DC on a 6+ methid (still 0.5) compared to the DC left on a 5+ method (0.33).

For Trygons that have taken 1 hit the two methods give equal chances of recoving the lost DC (0.33 each).

So the DC left on a 5+ favours lightly wounded beasts whereas the starting DC6+ has the potential for more DC back but the odds are against it.

So do we want to have lightly wounded bio-titans recovering fairly easily (DC left 5+) but struggling when badly wounded or do we want a low average recovery with an outside chance of a full recovery?

Lightbringer
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Soren
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:12 pm 
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Lightly wounded should recover fairly easily. Shrugging off some laser hits is not the problem for a mostly intact bioengineered horror.

Heavy wounded biotitan?s regeneration could be mentioned als "stabilisation" of the organism (seal of bleedings, regeneration of nerves for example.

Maybe give them more DC to compensate the loss on regeneration. (at least Hierophant, Dominatrix and Hydraphant).

Tricky to balance, I guess, but I prefer the "lightly wounded, easy regeneration, heavy wounded, limited regeneration" variant

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Markconz
 Post subject: War Engines
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:10 am 
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Just to check the bio-titan crits my friend and I will be using tomorrow - I've changed them in line with Chroma's suggestions. I've also made the thrashing around thing a MW 5+ within 5cm in line with other peoples suggestions. What do people think about that?

Critical Hit Effect. The Dominatrix is critically wounded. Roll a D6, on a 1 it thrashes about wildly in blind rage and any unit within 5cm is hit on a 5+ with the hit counting as a MW attack. On a 2-4 it gushes ichor from a deep wound and loses another DC. On a 5-6 it suffers major haemorrhaging and loses D3 DC.

We will also try Gargoyles 25 points, 15cm AA6+, brood 2.  Without worrying about suicide to see if it is overpowered... (ie same ability as the Chaos Furies, cos it only takes one gargoyle to smack into something not the whole stand.). We will leave spore ideas alone for the moment.

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