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LMRL, BML & VM

dysartes

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:17 am

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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm
Posts: 908

These seem to be some of the more problematic weapons in the AMTL over the 3 versions - the Light Multiple Rocket Launcher, the Barrage Missile and the Vortex Missile. They've also been the ones that I've left alone the most, so I think its time we took a look at them.

Light Multiple Rocket Launcher
Currently.....

Light Multiple Rocket Launcher - 45cm - 3BP -

Personally, I'd like to see this be somewhere between the Valkyrie's Rocket Pod and the full-blown MRL on the Battle titans. 2BP with Disrupt is one option for them, but I haven't tested that yet - if anyone has a game lined up where they could test that for me, I'd like to hear how it goes.

Barrage Missile
Currently.....

Barrage Missile - Unlimited - (1D6 + 3)BP - Single Shot, Disrupt

Another weapon that has caused problems, not so much from not knowing what we want it to do, but in trying to get it balanced against the other Support Weapons when it is a one-shot weapon. This has been tweaked a few tmes, both with regards to the size of the barrage and the special abilities it has. The problem with it is that it is unreliable, whereas you know exactly what you're getting from the other support weapons. However, going by previous versions, it is meant to be unreliable.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Vortex Missile
Currently.....

Vortex Missile - Unlimited - MW3+ - Single Shot, Titan Killer (D6), No LOF Required

Again, this is a weapon I've heard some comments about - feedback on its curent incarnation would be handy before we look to revise it.

Cheers.

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Charad

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:43 am

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Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:59 pm
Posts: 1212
Location: Finland

Light Multiple Rocket Launcher
Currently.....

Light Multiple Rocket Launcher - 45cm - 3BP -

I have seen that used with great effect, when in pairs, 6bp is nasty. With disrupt it becomes bp4 (only one blast marker less), so I don't think it needs such boost.

Barrage Missile
Currently.....

Barrage Missile - Unlimited - (1D6 + 3)BP - Single Shot, Disrupt

How about adding ignore cover?, then it does it's job.

Vortex Missile
Currently.....

Vortex Missile - Unlimited - MW3+ - Single Shot, Titan Killer (D6), No LOF Required

Hmm, harder case. Haven't seen it in action, so maybe it is too weak. I suggest :
Vortex missile - unlimited - MW3+ - single shot, TK(2D3), indirect fire.

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NOVAGUARD

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:11 pm

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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:37 pm
Posts: 406

would the change in the LMRL effect its bigger brother in the list? as this would drop their effect dramatically. IMHO. my legion uses rocket pods heavily ( easy to convert) but i dont see any reason to change them.

i like the Barrage missle as it is. i usually use a pair of them so i can prety much guarentte 13BP (3*2+ average die of 7). but this costs 2 hard points

the vortex is fine as it is... if it hits an unsheilded target its good night and goodbye usually.

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Ilushia

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:06 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

I can't say much about the LMRL or the Barrage Missile as I've never used either. But the Vortex Missile the primary complaint I hear about it is that you can use it with Overwatch to hit things moving behind the titan. My recommendation for it would be something like this.

Range: Unlimited. MW 3+. Special Rules: Indirect Fire, TK (D6), One-Shot.

Meaning you'd need to Sustain Fire to get the no LoS shot out. Prevents overwatch 'over the shoulder' firing as well as the long-term threat generated by putting a titan with 2 of these on Overwatch (Do you REALLY want to move that Great Gargant?).

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nealhunt

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:38 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

LMRL - 2BP is fine. IMHO, it should also be considered with paired Warhounds. At 3BP a Warhound pair could have 9BP (3 templates) and a VMB. At 2BP that comes down to 8BP total, which I think is more reasonable.

Vortex: I'm not sure that "no LoF" would equate with being able to shoot outside the fire arcs.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:21 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

Dysartes??? Where the hell have you been?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Light Multiple Rocket Launcher - No comment

Barrage Missile & Vortex Missile - The biggest problem is wrapping your mind around the idea that these are one shot weapons, and to make them equal with other comparable weapons they have to be 4 times as good. ?What makes them 4 times as good revolve around the basics: range, to-hit number, number of attacks generated when fired, and special abilities.

The Barrage Missile Launcher was changed from the p. 165 stats in an effort to make them more predictable. ?The concern was that in the original incarnation of 2D6BP the possibility of 2 or 12 BP (with everyone fainting at the possibility of 12BP) was unacceptable. Never mind the bell curve distribution of the 2D6 that centers on 7 with decreasing probability as you approach the ends of the curve versus a 1D6 flat distribution. ?Pansies...

My Suggestion: use the stats from the Epic: Armageddon rulebook p.165 for the Barrage Missile and the Vortex Missile as they are presented. ?You will probably want to make any changes that are made to the IG Deathstrike Missile to the Vortex Missile also.

Secondary Suggestion: Insert into the list a new one-shot missile called "Deathstrike Missile" that operates exactly as the Deathstrike Missile found in the IG. ?Completely change the stats of the "current" Vortex Missile to more closely match how it operated in previous editions of Epic.

Vortex Missile
Range: 150cm
Firepower: 3BP ?(= 4+ to-hit number)
Notes: One-shot weapon, TK(D6), Indirect

(That should rile up the Finland Branch of the Blarg Fan Club!!!)

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I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:38 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Barrage Missile & Vortex Missile - The biggest problem is wrapping your mind around the idea that these are one shot weapons, and to make them equal with other comparable weapons they have to be 4 times as good.

I fundementally dissagree here. They should be twice as good as a support weapon. Hark back to big long discussions we had about slow and one shot weapons - due to the BM rules alpha strikes, or lots of damage now rather than the same over a number of turns, break formations and take them out of the game, rather than chipping them to death.

Why twice as good? Most (70-80% in my experience though battlestats could be a good source of info) games last for three turns. Delivering 3 turns worth of fire in one turn is far to good for the above reason. So that leaves twice as good.

Will you use it? Well that depends on stats, but if you want to march, engage in assaults and other such games for the one turn you might not be a one shot weapon is what you want.

So barrage wise I'd be looking at twice as good as a barrage support weapon, vortex missile twice as good as a tk support weapon.

(That should rile up the Finland Branch of the Blarg Fan Club!!!)

My god it has been so long I forgot about all that!

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redsimon

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:28 pm

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Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:26 am
Posts: 424
Location: Germany

I think 2BP's for LMRL would be enough. Ignore cover should be added to the BML. And I think it's a good idea to change the Vortex Missile to an ara effect weapon.

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dysartes

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:31 am

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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm
Posts: 908

NOVAGUARD> Changes to the LMRL won't affect the main weapon - this is part of the reason why the slightly clumsy "Light" designation is in use, as it splits the Warhound weapons away from the Battle Titan weapons.

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Legion 4

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:07 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

Not to muddy the waters ... but the old AT1/SM1 Vortex ... well I hate to stoop to the pun ... But it was the Bomb !!! We like those old rules and would still use them in a game ! Expensive ... but bad news when it hit the fan !!

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Ilushia

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:59 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

I would be... Really really worried to see a Vortex Missile with TK(D6) and being a BP weapon... Even at BP 3 since it's also therefor a Macroweapon with the experimental MW BP rules you'd hit tanks, and more importantly Titans, on a 4+. Sustaining fire gives you a 3+. Fire it into a fully shielded Warlord and you average 2-3 hits, that's 7-10 DC delt, on average, to the target. Enough to strip all of its shields and inflict 1-4 DC in addition! Against an unshielded titan they would be nearly instant-death. The potential to claim BTS on turn 1 simply by activating a unit of Warhounds, doubling to reach range on the enemy titan and strip some fields, then retaining with the titan with the Vortex Missile would be a nightmare to see.

To make it even worse these missiles scale with the size of the titan in question. A Great Gargant, for instance, would take an average 14 DC of damage from a single Vortex Missile! Never mind that you could potentially field a titan with 2 Vortex Missiles and 2 Volcano Cannons. Launch a single Vortex Missile on Turn 1 and Turn 2 (Or Turn 2 and Turn 3 if you don't have LoS) and you're almost guaranteed between the missile and the volcano cannons to kill any Imperial, Ork or Tyranid titan in the game. Eldar might survive, if they were lucky enough to not fail their Holofield saves. Tau would most likely die unless the person playing them was on fire for rolls. The only race I can think of with even a slight prayer of surviving is the Necrons, and even they would almost certainly suffer 2-3 DC of damage.

I'd be relatively OK with the Vortex Missile being like TK(1), but TK(D6) is grotesque overkill against most targets when combined with the multiple hits from BP weapons against war engines.

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nealhunt

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:19 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(The_Real_Chris @ Feb. 27 2007,18:38)

QUOTE

I would say probably a bit more than 2x as good, but I agree in principal.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:04 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Well yeah

But saying 2 and a bit lacks impact

. A bit more for me is the addition of extra effects - say for the barage missile launcher start with two quake cannon (4BP MW) and see what is evivalanet to that. MW, 3+D6BP is one, 3+D6bp, disrupt, ignore cover is another (good infantry swarm clearer then).

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: LMRL, BML & VM

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:06 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

2x, 2.5 times, 4 times as powerful as a normal weapons, whatever... The real point I was trying to make was that previous moves to deviate these weapons from the stats presented on p.165 of the E:A rulebook were a mistake in my opinion. (There are other weapons in that same list that needed changing, but not these.) Comparing them to the AMTL V2.0 list Quake Cannon weapon stats will just further compound the mistake because that weapon was deviated in a manner that I think was counter-productive also.

Yes, the stats I gave for the area-effect Vortex Missile were very nasty. But then again, they were supposed to be nasty. In previous editions of Epic weapons like Vortex Missiles, Power Fists, Battle Claws, and Wreckers were supposed to one-turn kill a titan that was in the wrong place. Are you worried about it being too powerful? Fine, tweak it down to 2BP, or keep it at 3BP and make it a TK(D3) weapon. Just keep it a BP - TK weapon.

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I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...

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