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Carthage/Libyan Spearmen

 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:02 am 
Swarm Tyrant
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Well, the 'article' on the Baccus site got me thinking again about my own Ancient battles, so I thought that I would briefly revisit the era (until something else new and shiney arrives). I will be concentrating on the Battles of Sicilly, between the Greeks and the Carthaginians. However, Baccus only does Greek spearmen.

So, can anyone tell me what the uniform/kit differences were between the Greek City Hoplites and the Carthaginian/Libyan Spearmen of the time... bearing in mind that these will be in 6mm!  :p

Also, does anyone have the Heroics and Ross figures for the period, since they actually do both types but I believe that the molds are old and the detail not so great.

Also, and online references for these battles, or the organisation/uniforms of the day would be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Is this the battle of Sicily during The Peloponnesian War?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition


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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:19 pm 
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I think using either Punic war era figs for Carthage or some troops from the Suceesor States range would suit you find.


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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:28 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars


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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:12 pm 
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Are these guyz, Chaos or what !?!?  :;):

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Sicilly falls between the Peloponnesian and Punic Wars... and there is precious little record since the levelling of Carthage! I found the Wiki site, thanks (although I really dont like the Wiki pages).

I will probably stick to the successor spearmen for my Carthaginians... and give Peter at Baccus a call.

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:56 pm 
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So, at last i can use my carthaginian knowledge (i have always loved the matter, and i have visited Carthage and Gadir so far)!

Let me start with this: no one knows if the carthaginans fought with spears a la hoplite or with pikes forming phalanxes. It is known that during the first punic war a spartan general reorganised the carthaginian mainland army following hellenistic lines, so much historians thing that from then on they fought using phalanx formations, but the historical references are obscure and unclear (with guys calling their weapons pikes just to call them spears in the next sentence and things like that). But then, after Pyrro?s defeats it?s most possible that phalanx formations were totally abandoned, so... who knows?
For the lybian-carthaginian equipment, it is supposed that they used the same equipment as greeks, so for spearmen it would be an open helmet, a linen or leather cuirass, a large shield and maybe some bronce protection for the forelegs. But then, it is known that citizen-recruited spearmen wore no armour (they could not afford it or had no time to get one), and the lybian-carthaginians in Hannibal?s army had taken roman armour (chain mail, so far better that te greek-style cuirass) from the deceased romans at the major battles in Italy. In your era, they would most probably wear the same armour as the greeks, or not at all, but being mercenaries i will suppose that they would like almot like their greek counterparts (but their darker skin tone will definitely make a difference in 6mm!)

Hope to have bothered you all (i have been interested in this subject since i was 8!)

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:12 am 
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That is great, thanks for this info. I am slowly reaching information overload... so....

If you were going to field some Greek City State Hoplites and some Libyan Line Infantry with heavy spears, and you were going to do it using Baccus packs... which ones would you recommend?

Many thanks.

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:15 am 
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Very interesting, YO ! And I'm sure seeing Carthage would have been great ... :)

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:54 am 
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I bow before the superior knowledge..... :D


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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:06 am 
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Seems my knowledge on the subject is superfluous... :)

Overall I'd say that even in 15mm, many italian, carthaginian, greek and hellenistic troops are widely interchangeable. This would be even notable in 6mm. Provided you can tell them apart in some way on the table that is the important thing.

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:28 am 
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And they trampled all over Malta in the process too... same as everyone else  :p
I'd guess the Carthaginian range (excluding the elephants) would do. The Successors (from the Ancient Wars series) would probably work as well.
Meanwhile, I've embarked on my own history project, with some help from a Baccus order which should be coming this way....  :cool:

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:34 pm 
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I have never ever seen the baccus line since today. I will go for the african spearmen. Their poses are a lot less impressive, but they are more accurate as they use open helmets, while the greek hoplites use the beautiful corinthian enclosed helmets, which were not anymore in use at the time of the Alexander the Great... not even with the greek armies!
And the voyage to Carthage was really remarkable, although unfortunately the romans did their work too well (and then all the people in Tunis had to build over the ruins of Carthage... every single ruin you see is surrounded by villas!).

PS: i made a 1/72 siracusan DBA army some time ago to fight a "punic war" campaign, athough my mates?armies are still uncomplete...

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:53 pm 
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That is exactly what I was looking for, thanks. So, Greek Hoplites and Carthaginian African Spearmen for my Greeks and Libyans, then... now, while I was looking around the army lists for the game, I noticed the Ptolemaic Successors...  :devil:

Still, this selection allows me to get ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Egyptians and Carthaginians in three, 6mm lists.

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 Post subject: Carthage/Libyan Spearmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:34 pm 
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You know what cool about the sucessor states....

Really big war galleys


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