Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 3 of 3
  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Nids - a new player's perspective
Chroma
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Moscovian @ Feb. 02 2007,16:36)
QUOTE
Chroma, those batreps are great (I love all your batreps). :;): ?But I still see the Tyranids winning the majority of games. 2 of the 3, and one of those was awful. ?The one loss was where the Tyranids were in the hands of an inexperienced (Tyranid) player and the opponent knew the army inside and out.

Thanks!

Oh, I see Tyranids win a lot of games as well.  *laugh*  But, honestly, I don't think it's really a matter of "over-powered", it really seems, to me, to be a matter of inexperience.  All the lessons you've learned playing any of the other armies don't directly apply to fighting the Bugs.

Case in point: against other armies it's better to attack formations that haven't activated yet, to break/degrade.  Against 'Nids, it's better to attack formations that *have* activated, to isolate and eliminate them, particularly with engages and such.

Engaging a Tyranid swarm that *hasn't* activated yet, is just giving it a free move or two if you can't completely eliminate it, that's something only more experience teaches.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Hena @ Feb. 02 2007,16:57)
QUOTE
I've played three games against my own nids.

Again, and I think your experiences bear this out Hena, it's getting more experience fighting Tyranids that addresses their "balance" issues.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:59 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Chroma @ Feb. 02 2007,16:05)
QUOTE
An unit charging into an enemy ZoC and an assaulting unit that's *already* in a ZoC seem to be two different cases to me.  Is there a FAQ reference clarifying this?

There is an FAQ that addresses it:
1.12.3 Make Charge Move
Q: How should we interpret section 1.12.3 when it says "Remember that a charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered"?

A: The intent of the rule is that if you enter a zoc, then you must attempt to move into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose ZOC you have entered. If you start a move in a ZOC, you can either move into contact with the closest enemy unit, or exit the ZOC by the shortest possible route.

If a unit does not have enough movement to make it into base contact it still moves as much as possible towards the closest unit. The intent of the rule is that you should not be able to charge through a ZOC to reach a unit further away but should alwayss move towards the closest enemy unit even if you cannot make it into base contact.


What if the assaulting Whirlwinds elect not to move at all ("A unit is never forced to move" - 1.7)?  Unless the Lictors are precisely 5cm away and counter-charge into the Whirlwinds, a firefight still occurs; is this correct?

1.7.3 and 1.12 both provide exceptions to the "don't have to move" statement based on unusual situations.  1.12 is quoted above.  1.7.3:
If a unit finds itself in an enemy zone of control for any
reason, then it must either charge the enemy or leave the
zone of control when it next takes an action (note that
this will require an action that allows it to charge or
move).

Basically, there is no way to loiter inside someone's ZoC.  You're either moving full bore towards base contact or moving out.  If you are in an assault and in the enemy's ZoC, you have to move to base contact as directly as possible.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(nealhunt @ Feb. 02 2007,16:59)
QUOTE
Basically, there is no way to loiter inside someone's ZoC. ?You're either moving full bore towards base contact or moving out. ?If you are in an assault and in the enemy's ZoC, you have to move to base contact as directly as possible.

Okay, I'm not talking about "loitering" in the ZoC, I'm talking about moving *out* of it.

A unit that moves into a ZoC via a "charge move" must attempt to base the nearest enemy unit.

If you start in an enemy ZoC, you've got two options "move out" or "base". ?The Whirlwinds, for this example, declare an engage, then use their move to exit the Lictors' ZoC and then proceed to firefight them.

Does starting within an enemy ZoC eliminate the choice of "move out of ZoC" when taking an engage action?

This quote: "If you start a move in a ZOC, you can either move into contact with the closest enemy unit, or exit the ZOC by the shortest possible route." would seem to indicate you still have the option to "exit... by the shortest route." and that's precisely what the Whirlwinds did in this fight.

I'm not trying to be pendatic, I'm trying to understand the rules that apply here.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Markconz
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:55 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
We have always interpreted this the same as Chroma, and I have to say that to do otherwise seems massively counterintuitive in terms of what the troops are doing. My artillery charges the bugs instead of firefighting why now??  :O




_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Hena @ Feb. 02 2007,18:58)
QUOTE
I like these kind of arguments. It's like watching tennis, but includes Epic so it's better by order of magnitudes :D

We just need some hot chicks to spice things up... then it would *dominate* tennis!  *laugh*  ???

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:22 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
I understand it's possible to read "enter" as different than "starting in."

The problem is that the entire "starting in enemy ZoC" is such an unusual event that the other rules are written without explicit reference to it.  I've quoted the relevant rule sections (1.7.3, 1.12.3, FAQ) but I understand why you don't think they are explicit enough.  I don't really have any other stuff to throw out except many conversations on the various boards where the "must charge" effect has been discussed.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
It's why scouts are annoying... they force you to Engage a crappy 100pt Sentinel formation, or Advance to get away from them... but either way they prevent you from doing what you wanted to do, which was Sustain Fire on a Warlord Titan! :D

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:33 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Markconz @ Feb. 02 2007,18:55)
QUOTE
My artillery charges the bugs instead of firefighting why now??  :O

Because the placement of the pieces, especially Scouts, is abstracted and approximate.

The reality is that the arty doesn't know exactly where the bugs are.  There are other factors that contribute to whether or not a unit gets Scout ability but in the case of Lictors it's mostly that the only thing you know is that something is out there but you can't tell where.  Either give it a wide berth or risk it ambushing you.

The choice the troopers "on the ground" are facing is to stand their ground or get the heck out.  If they are getting out, they have to get WAY out because they don't know where the enemy is.

"Assaulting" in this case isn't really "charging towards the enemy like a screaming banshee."  What's going on is more like a "hunker down and watch the blips close in until you have a target" last stand, like the marines in Aliens.  The arty game pieces might move to the Lictors but the "on the ground" situation that movement represents could just as easily be that the Lictors managed to infiltrate close enough to have a snack.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dobbsy
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
So, I hope I understand this...  what we are saying is, going by the rules:

If you start in a scout ZOC you have to base contact that formation OR move entirely out of the ZOC thus meaning you don't engage - including a FF engage.
You either go CC or you advance away and just shoot.

Is this correct?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Dobbsy @ Feb. 03 2007,04:34)
QUOTE
So, I hope I understand this... ?what we are saying is, going by the rules:

If you start in a scout ZOC you have to base contact that formation OR move entirely out of the ZOC thus meaning you don't engage - including a FF engage.
You either go CC or you advance away and just shoot.

Is this correct?

Unfortunately, that's what we're debating... the rules aren't 100% clear.

It's "must" vs "never forced"... *laugh*

We need a rules lawyer, stat!   :D

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Markconz
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:44 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(nealhunt @ Feb. 02 2007,18:33)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Feb. 02 2007,18:55)
QUOTE
My artillery charges the bugs instead of firefighting why now?? ?:O

Because the placement of the pieces, especially Scouts, is abstracted and approximate.

Yes I understand the necessity of abstracted processes but this seems to pushing the limits IMHO. I wonder how many other people actually play it this way? I suspect not many, but it would be interesting to find out.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Markconz @ Feb. 03 2007,18:44)
QUOTE
Yes I understand the necessity of abstracted processes but this seems to pushing the limits IMHO. I wonder how many other people actually play it this way? I suspect not many, but it would be interesting to find out.

Is trying to find a scout unit a variation on the Uncertainty Principle?  *laugh*   :alien:

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 3 of 3
  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net