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Nids - a new player's perspective

 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:33 pm 
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I actually like the idea of fearless on Lictors.  It can easily repsrent their cameoline ability.

The enemy engages them in a 6cm firefight, they stealth and slink off somewhere.  Ready to jump in again with another hit and run.

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:09 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 01 2007,05:49)
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This is hilarious. After browsing some french sites with google they complain about same things (bio titans, lictors). Only that they are too good. :) :D :laugh:

Since I don't read French very well, what exactly are these players' complaints against Lictors?

I've rarely seen Lictors get their points back, most seem to die in 6cm firefights and combat resolution. ?Even if teleported to place enemies in the Lictors' ZoC, the enemy can still "engage" and move *back* to firefight them. ?If you look at the Marine vs Nids fight [b]Dobbsy[/i] and I played where the Lictors showed up near the Whirlwinds, the Whirlwinds engaged, backed up, and used FF to blast the Spooks apart. ?So, my 300 point formation destroyed 200 points... in *one* turn. ?I'd say that's a fine trade off.

I can understand the initial shock of having a bunch of first-striking MW attacks appear nearby, but with a little experience, they seem ridiculously easy to deal with.

I think I'm going to try and max out on Lictors and Genestealers in my next playtest, to see how they do en masse.





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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:38 pm 
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Even if teleported to place enemies in the Lictors' ZoC, the enemy can still "engage" and move *back* to firefight them.


No, they can't.

The charge rules clearly state that once you've entered a target's ZoC you must proceed into base contact.  Since they start inside the ZoC, declaring an Engage action against the Lictors means they must move to base contact.

The Whirlwinds could have declared another action that had a move, including an Engage against a different target, and simply moved away but at that point they cannot FF the Lictors.

1.12.3, 4th paragraph, emphasis added:
A maximum of two units may move into base contact
with each defender. A charging unit that enters a zone of
control must move into base contact with the nearest
enemy whose zone of control has been entered.
Once a
unit has been contacted it loses its zone of control for the
rest of the assault, allowing other units to move past it.

With, for example, 2 Lictors, a minimum of 2 Whirlwinds would have had to move into base contact - 1 for each Lictor.  At that point the ZoC is negated and no one else would have to reach base contact.

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:50 pm 
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Dobbsy, part of your problem may have been that your opponent (Chroma) knew you were bringing Nids and tailored his list to deal with them (conciously or unconciously).  If you were facing a high number of TK weapons then I could see your experience as being a rough one.

I, on the other hand, have played against the Nids and had a severely different experience.  I found them to be literally unstoppable.  The only difference I can see between our experiences (besides the fact that maybe I just suck :p ) is that I never knew when I was playing them.

ePilgrim and I have enough armies to randomly select one and just roll with it.  Both times I pulled SMs vs Nids and they were brutalized and violated on the battlefield.  One game I was almost wiped out to the man.

This seems to be the same case as AMTL, if you know you are facing them they are easy to stop.  If you don't they are over-the-top.

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:05 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 02 2007,15:38)
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With, for example, 2 Lictors, a minimum of 2 Whirlwinds would have had to move into base contact - 1 for each Lictor. ?At that point the ZoC is negated and no one else would have to reach base contact.

I guess I intepreted "that enters" different, since the Whirlwinds aren't using their charge move to "enter" the Lictors' ZoC.

"Charge Move", to me, appears to be a subset of "Move" and "moving into a ZoC" seems to be different than "finding oneself in an enemy ZoC" (1.7.3): "finding oneself in an enemy ZoC" appears to allow said unit two options, "charge" or "move" away as opposed to the single option in "entering an enemy ZoC" which is "move to base". Section 1.12.3, P2 "[U]nits from the charging formation may move in any direction and do not have to head towards the enemy."

An unit charging into an enemy ZoC and an assaulting unit that's *already* in a ZoC seem to be two different cases to me.  Is there a FAQ reference clarifying this?

What if the assaulting Whirlwinds elect not to move at all ("A unit is never forced to move" - 1.7)?  Unless the Lictors are precisely 5cm away and counter-charge into the Whirlwinds, a firefight still occurs; is this correct?

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:09 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 02 2007,15:50)
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Dobbsy, part of your problem may have been that your opponent (Chroma) knew you were bringing Nids and tailored his list to deal with them (conciously or unconciously). ?If you were facing a high number of TK weapons then I could see your experience as being a rough one.

Actually, I randomly chose the two armies I used (Space Marines and Orks) from a list of general Tournament armies I'd used in the past.

For the Necrons, I believe Pipboy thought he was going to be fighting Tau, as that's what Dobbsy is know for playing.

As a note, Dobbsy won against the Marines and lost to the Orks, he just found Lictors and Bio-Titans to not be anywhere near worth their points.

Lastly though, I am a very experienced 'Nid player and, generally, know how to deal with them. ?The tactics used in fighting them are almost the opposite of what are used against "normal" armies.





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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Moscovian, I invite you to look over the armylists used in the battles and I'd love to hear your comments about them vs Tyranids:

Battle 1 vs Space Marines

Battle 2 vs Necrons

Battle 3 vs Orks

The Orks only had three true TK weapons, and one of those was a Mega-Choppa!  *laugh*   :alien:

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:19 pm 
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Well, perhaps it is also the frequency of TK that is a big factor.  Orks have their Zaps, but SMs have nada. :(

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Hena:  Go read the post again.  The Whirlwinds must move into base contact with the Lictors if they Engage them.  There is no "move back" or "stand still" option if they are inside the Lictor ZoC.

The Lictors won't have to countercharge at all because the Whirlwinds are required to move to base contact with them in that circumstance.

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:33 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 02 2007,16:20)
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Ha, I use google translation (I don't know any french). So far I've come to conclusion that it's just too good. I can't seem to see any specific complaints (or then the translation muddles them). Here's a quotation (an answer to saying that Lictors don't have any FF).

To me it seems a complaint that "shooting" Lictors isn't worth it, they seem to be missing the point that Lictors engaged in a firefight will, most likely, already be down +1/+2 in resolution due to outnumbering and that the Lictors will most likely be wiped out in resolution.

Many people seem to fail to realize that Tyranids still lose non-fearless units to combat resolution, conflating that with their immunity to Blast markers.  It's a *very* common mistake I've seen when playing with Tyranids.

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:36 pm 
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Chroma, those batreps are great (I love all your batreps). :;):  But I still see the Tyranids winning the majority of games. 2 of the 3, and one of those was awful.  The one loss was where the Tyranids were in the hands of an inexperienced (Tyranid) player and the opponent knew the army inside and out.

Of course Eldar fans went through this too.  Nobody (including me) wanted to admit the Eldar were overpowered.  We blamed it on being a new list, needing different tactics, blah blah blah.  In the end we got Biel Tan 1.8.  :p

I see the list as being somewhat over-the-top (bent but not broken).  The classic-Neal-Hunt-10% reduction in strength strikes me as a good move, although what to weaken I'm not sure on.

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 Post subject: Nids - a new player's perspective
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:37 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 02 2007,16:21)
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Hena: ?Go read the post again. ?The Whirlwinds must move into base contact with the Lictors if they Engage them. ?There is no "move back" or "stand still" option if they are inside the Lictor ZoC.

So, there is no difference between "entering ZoC" and "starting in ZoC"?

What about the 1.7 "No unit is forced to move" in the Movement section?

Again, "A charging unit that enters" a ZoC seems different to me than "A charging unit that's already in" a ZoC.

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