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Demon Prince
mageboltrat
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:25 pm 
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(Hena @ Dec. 06 2006,14:18)
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Ok my one single problem with chaos lists is the Demon Prince. I have serious problems with Infantry having TK weapons. IMO it is wrong. Does this btw (infantry having TK) bother anyone else?

Now I can understand that super beef-up princes have TK and thats fine. But how about make it 2DC WE (or AV at least)?

makes sense to me :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm 
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I agree about the TK on infantry.  It's bothered me for a long time, especially compared to the MW attacks on the Avatar.

I like the idea of a WE/AV daemon prince due to gigantic size but DC2 is curiously vulnerable.  The target can be isolated and compard to DC3 it doubles the chance of a TKd3 weapon killing in one shot.  Unless there are multiple WEs in the formation it's a death sentence.  This was well illustrated in the Nid playtesting where the Harridan was tried at DC2 repeatedly and has always failed.

I threw outs ome stats for the Primarchs as DC2 but they were for Appendix models and I didn't make any serious attempt at balancing them with point values.

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Charad
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:48 pm 
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I agree it too. Tk on infantry is too goog.
Also Tk is a bit too good to daemon princes in general.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:53 pm 
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Agreed, TK for infantry seems wrong.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:14 pm 
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I agree too - TK is way too much.

Surely the answer is to simply drop TK to MW rather than making the prince a AV/WE - he's not that big is he?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:18 pm 
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That sounds like a good solution. I have no problems with them having MW.

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:34 pm 
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I think this might be a storm in a teacup, it just sounds bad. For these reasons

1) How is it any different to having a Zapp Gun on a gun wagon in a blitz mob. they can still only be hurt by one type of attack in this case AT. and Orks can have 3 of them they are TK (D3) and can be used at range.

2) In most cases a TK1 weapon is identical to a MW the only case when it is not is against reinforced armour, which is fairly rare.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:20 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Dec. 06 2006,14:53)
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Agreed, TK for infantry seems wrong.

Well, an Ork Big Gun infantry unit can be upgraded to be a TK weapon as well.

My "problem" is more with the Daemon Prince being Infantry.  Seems a "powerful" Daemon Prince should be an AV, along with the Chaos Spawn.

Does anyone mount Chaos Spawn three to a base?

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tneva82
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:36 pm 
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(Charad @ Dec. 06 2006,14:48)
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I agree it too. Tk on infantry is too goog.
Also Tk is a bit too good to daemon princes in general.

Too strong for 40k ed 3-4 daemon princes or too strong for daemon princes as they are fluffwise?

It is too strong for daemon princes as represented in 40k but definetly too strong(more of too weak...) for daemon princes the way they should be.

Epic doesn't have same problems as 40k has in representing strong characters like daemon princes. Why not take advantage of it?

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Charad
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:28 pm 
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That's right in 40k they aren't really much more powerful than orginal chaos lord.
My point was that in epic, if someone is so strong that is having TK attack, it ain't infantry sized...
Also avatar is having only 1 macro attack. (some lists have also court's attack)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:14 am 
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Background has them bordering on Greater Daemons in some cases and could rightfully have a TK if they are a giant wielding a daemon weapon, but I think they really should be AV or WE stats in that case.

An infantry sized DP could be extremely nasty, but isn't going to be topping MW abilities and could use the stat line of a normal commander.  It's not like the CSM list is lacking in character upgrades.  If you REALLY want to represent a human-sized daemonic CSM, you can put multiple upgrades onto his stand and just attribute them all to the daemon prince.  That would be 3 attacks in assault, 1 of which was MW, and all the daemon summoning ability as well.

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tneva82
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:04 am 
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(Charad @ Dec. 20 2006,21:28)
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if someone is so strong that is having TK attack, it ain't infantry sized...

What's with all this strenght=size thingie anyway?

Daemon prince does not get it's strength by being big lumbering monster but from having power of warp within it.

And anyway the thing is balance reason. Make it WE and you'll just make daemon prince particulary weak...

Well unless you make it high DC warmachine with teleport and high speed...

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Charad
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:55 am 
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DP is not too powerful, it is just fine in game situations, it it just that why it has tk attack and is infantry? And truly chaos armies have plenty of characters.
That making his daemonic minions to same stand seem better solution, that their compared attacks gives that tk ability not just one guy. :)

It draws power from warp and carries mighty daemonic weapon, but so? So does many other things have powerful artifacts too.
In 40k reference, abaddon's deamon weapon is only that should gain tk attack, others are just augmented cc weapons compared to that.

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Mohawk
 Post subject: Demon Prince
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:26 am 
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I also find a TK attack to strong for a DP, its to much for the greater deamons aswell but thats another gripe of mine.

The deamon weapons, from Lost and the damned and forward, are not at any time better vs armour than a meltagun in general.

What Chaos characters always has been masters of are the number of attacks - give the DP a MW weapon and, optionally, an additional attack with it if you find him to weak.

I find this TK race a "list creep"-thingy. Fluff should be respected but regarding "?ber"-weapons caution should rule.
Regarding fluff: Eldar fluff tells us they move more than twice as quick as humans - should Eldar inf have speed 30cm?
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