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AV + WE Round Two

Jaldon

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:04 am

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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

Carnifex
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
AV/ 15cm/ 3+/ 3+/ 6+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
"" Claws/ Base Contact/ CCMW/ +1 Attacks
notes: Walker, Fearless, Brood (3)

Venomfex
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
AV/ 15cm/ 3+/ 5+/ 4+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Venom Cannon/ 30cm/ AP5+ AT6+
notes: Walker, Fearless, Brood (3)

Vituperator
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 25cm/ 4+/ 4+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Spore Clusters/ 15cm/ 3xBP/ Disrupt
Bio-Plasmic Breath/ Template/ MW5+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK/ +2 Attacks
notes: DC-4, Commander, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Synapse, Skimer Transport (Eight of the following: Gargoyles, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Raveners, Hive Tyrant, Tyranid Warriors)
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed

Harridan
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 35cm/ 5+/ 4+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Twin Linked Bio-Gun/ 30cm/ 2x AP2+ AT3+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ CC Weapon/ +3 Attacks
notes:DC-3, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Skimer Transport (Four of the following: Gargoyles)
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed

Hydraphant
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 25cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Warp Blast/ 30cm/ AP4+ AT4+ AA5+
Pyro-Acid Spray/ Template/ AP3+ AT4+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK(D3)/ +2 Attacks
notes: DC-8, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed

Dominatrix as Hydraphant but add "Synapse"

Hierophant
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 25cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Bio-Cannon/ 45cm/ AP3+ AT4+
Bio-Plasmic Breath/ Template/ MW 5+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK(D3)/ +2 Attacks
notes: DC-6, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed

Scythed Hierodule
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 20cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Acid Spray/ 15cm/ 2xAP3+ AT6+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK/ +2 Attacks
notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (6)
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed.

Barbed Hierodule
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 20cm/ 4+/ 5+/ 4+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Twin-Linked Bio-Cannon/ 30cm/ 2xAP2+ AT3+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ CC Weapon/ +1 Attacks
notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (6)
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed

Trygon
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 15cm/ 3+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Bio-Electric Field/ 15cm/ 2x AP3+ AT6+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ CC weapon/ +2 Attacks
notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Invulnerable Save, Infiltrator, Brood (6)
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed

Malefactor
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
AV/ 20cm/ 4+/ 5+/ 4+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Spine Banks/ 15cm/ 2xAP4+/ +1 FF Attacks
notes: Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4)

Haruspex
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
AV/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MW/ +2 Attacks
notes:Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4)

I'll be watching

And THinking about the combined Carnifex, an idea worth some thought

Jaldon

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Lightbringer

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:33 am

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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:09 am
Posts: 276

Hena,

you said...

" Haruspex +1EA and FF4+ ... I would have like +2EA and FF5+ better, oh well."

you meant Malefactor yes? If so then I think +3 5+'s would be preferable - loads of spines but not pin point accurate.

Jaldon - the Haruspex - speed? 20cm?

And the poor old Trygon has had his claws snipped - he's lost his MW CC. Poor little Trygon.

Lightbringer
:cool:

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:34 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I've only got two major points to raise (I'm happy with the rest!)

Firstly (And as usual) I believe the Hierophant should lose the Bio-Plasma breath attack as it's non-cannon (Leave it to the Hydraphant) and also too powerful for the wee beastie.

Secondly, I still believe that the Dominatrix should be WYSIWYG, since the model looks nothing like a Hydraphant and is half the size.

Some theoretical WYSIWYG stats for a Dominatrix:

- Speed 30
- DC 5
- Invulnerable Save
- 4+ RA Save.
- Bio-Cannon (2x AP3+ / AT4+)
- Warp Blast
- Synapse

Perhaps even RA 3+

It's just not DC-8, IMHO, it's so small, so other methods have to be found of protecting it.

Finally a couple of minor points

- Shouldn't the Hierophant's Bio-Cannon be (2x AP3+ / AT4+) and not a single shot.
- The Harridan's Twin Bio-Cannon is listed as a Twin Bio-Gun.

I like the Trygon's loss of MW attack status... though I did prefer his number of Bio-Electric attacks as 'D3' rather than '2'.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:22 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

So it has warpfield which effect is modelled 3 more DC

It just looks *wrong* at DC-8, whatever the reconned justification (After the new model was cancelled).

Under no circumstances should we give anyone 3+RA save.

Why? MW & TK Weapons will still hack it apart, and it's the biggest single target in the army. At lower DC it needs the protection to keep it as hard to kill overall.

It has two claws on model so TK attacks are fine.

I'm fine with some TK attacks on it.

The cannon can easily be a template weapon.

The cannon is 96.7% identical to the Exocrine's Bio-Cannon. It's not WYSIWYG if it's not even mentioned on the unit profile.

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nealhunt

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:40 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 22 2006,12:22)

QUOTE

Under no circumstances should we give anyone 3+RA save.

Why? MW & TK Weapons will still hack it apart, and it's the biggest single target in the army. At lower DC it needs the protection to keep it as hard to kill overall.

That is more or less what I thought and I defended it repeatedly until playtest results started rolling in. The results were atrocious. The only thing that can reasonably be expected to take out a 3+RA WE is multi-TK weapons because most of the standard tactics for taking out "hard" targets don't work on Nids. You can't suppress them with multi-formation fire and you can't use clipping assaults to drive them back.

At a normal tounament level 2700-3000 points not even IG can take enough TK to come close to taking on 2 Heirophants with 3+RA. Even something like a Shadowsword company and Deathstrikes can be seriously slowed down by a couple Lictor formations and a Harridan bent on harassing them.

It might be okay to have a 3+RA for a unit in a normal army, subject to suppression/breaking. For Nids it creates an unkillable, unbreakable assault monster.

I'm 100% with Hena on the "absolutely not" position.

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nealhunt

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:44 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Malefactor
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
AV/ 20cm/ 4+/ 5+/ 4+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Spine Banks/ 15cm/ 2xAP4+/ +1 FF Attacks
notes: Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4)

Haruspex
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
AV/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MW/ +2 Attacks
notes:Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4)

Maybe it's just my pet peeve, but compared to the models, these stats just seem backwards. Malefactors have the giant thumper arms on the front that look like they could reasonbly crush a tank or at the very least cause such concussion that they injured the crew inside. Haruspex just have pincers. I know that going back to SM/TL-era that the Haruspex was the CC beast and the Malefactor was the shooty one but it's not as if we haven't already played musical chairs with the names/conventions of all the Nid units.

So... I'm making another plea to switch these stat lines so they line up with the minis.

=========

Speaking of minis - any word on what might, possibly, one day in the distant future, be put into production for the Nids (aside from E&C's FW rumors)?

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Hojyn

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:57 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 22 2006,12:22)

QUOTE

It just looks *wrong* at DC-8, whatever the reconned justification (After the new model was cancelled).

Just wait 'til you see MY Dominatrix!

Ahem, apart from that, these stats are rather good, I think.

Crazy idea: how about giving the Malefactor FF6+ and +3 extra attacks? Lots of attacks, but highly inaccurate.

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ragnarok

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:11 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

(Hojyn @ Nov. 22 2006,13:57)

QUOTE

Just wait 'til you see MY Dominatrix! ?

My dominatrix is bigger than yours!

It is this big

*holds out arms as as wide as possible*

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Chroma

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:16 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(ragnarok @ Nov. 22 2006,14:11)

QUOTE

My dominatrix is bigger than yours!

It is this big

*holds out arms as as wide as possible*

The Red Queen *eats* other Dominatrices! (Is that the actual plural?)

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Lightbringer

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:15 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:09 am
Posts: 276

I agree with Hena. I've not only got used to the Haruspex having huge pincers and the Malefactor having fat arms full of spines that fly out and my opponents have had no trouble with this interpretation.

Overall, I like these new stats - I might even try the new 3+CC Carnifex but.. probably not seeing as the Venomfex is now even better in a Firefight than it was before! That combined with the fact that SK is still no better at getting into CC (or surviving).

Lightbringer
:cool:

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thurse

Post subject: AV + WE Round Two

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:06 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:13 pm
Posts: 185
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Hi!

Just a few comments on the proposals :

* hierophant : Bio-Plasmic Breath/ Template/ MW 5+
Overpowered for me considering the cost

* Carnifex/Venomfex and Malefactor/Haruspex
Honestly, the FF variants are much more interesting. Engaging is easier, your are less vulnerable to assaults triggered by the opponent ( as most assault armies tend to be FF oriented ). For a unit with a movement of 15cm, CC is much less viable than FF.

In most of the games we played, the nids were a FF horde army. CC was used only by specialist units ( with great movement or infiltrators )

cheers

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