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SG Article Marine Units

 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:29 pm 
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As far as a Techmarine goes, a fully-kitted techmarine is one of the NASTIEST close-combat characters in 40k.  7 attacks, 5 power-weapon and 2 power-fist is hideous.  Add his retinue that amounts to a devastator squad with twice the firepower (retinue has 4 models max, each with a heavy weapon), and the extra shooting attacks that he gets personally, and the closest comparison is a Librarian in a Devastator detachment (or a Runepriest in a Longfangs detachment of Space Wolves).  

Legitimately, a Tech has a MW Fire-Fight attack, and a MW Close-Combat attack.  His servitor retinue can have 2 Heavy bolters, a Multimelta, and a Plasma Cannon, with just 4 models in the retinue.  It's one of the most disgusting units in 40k, almost impossible to outshoot or to outfight.  Kinda like a gun'Fex, but it loses effectiveness with damage and is easier to damage.

If we leave the Techmarine a character (we could make him a stand, instead), I agree with Blarg's suggestion of giving every LV and AV an invulnerable save.  

I actually prefer 'Fearless' for the Apothecary.  In 40k, when an Apothecary is present, a Marine unit does not have to test for taking shooting casualties, and they can take fewer casualties in close combat.  That's roughly analogous to Fearless, even though it is a little inelegant.  I don't like the idea of an Apothecary giving an invuln save to INF and LVs, as there's a limit to how many wounds an Apothecary can deal with in 40k (merely one per shooting phase).  It just doesn't feel right.

The Damocles and Prometheus command vehicles are probably best served as upgrades to the Commander (or Supreme Commander).  While BFG (and Warmaster, IIRC) grant multiple 'head honcho' re-rolls, each re-roll is single-use, not once-per-turn, so I don't think multiple re-rolls is necessarily the right idea.  Part of the problem is that a Damocles is not, repeat NOT, a combat vehicle.  It sets up shop someplace safe and directs signals between different units.  Additionally, it has no effective transport capacity.  It's probably best served as an objective model, and assume all the 'Supreme Commander' coordination stuff is actually from the Company Captain and Damocles working together.

The Prometheus, however, is actually really useful in combat.  It's well armored and differently armed than a standard LR.  Most Chapters only have one or two, if they have any at all.  I like the suggestion that a Supreme Commander in a Prometheus can make a coordinated assault with no distance restriction.  That sounds like what the comms gear can enable.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:21 am 
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I like the idea of granting an invulnerable save to all AV/LV  or Infantry in a formation with Techmarines / Apothecaries.

Note that this would represent a Techmarine with a technical Servitor retinue, not a combat servitor retinue, so he wouldn't get a MW FF attack.



For the Damocles, they have the following abilities in 40k:

1 - Grants a reserves re-roll.
2 - Grants teleporters to re-roll their scatter rolls.
3 - Allows the purchase of an orbital strike
4 - Allows Imperial Navy aircraft to be bought for a Marine army.

For that I'd give:

1 - The command radius of the formation is changed from 5cm to 15cm (So coordinated assaults can be called for at longer ranges).
2 - Any unit teleporting within 50cm of the Damocles may reroll its Teleport blast marker test.
3 - One use per game, on a sustained fire action the Damocles may call down a BP3, Orbital Blast Template attack, with no LOF required.
4 - Make Imperial Navy aircraft 25 points cheaper???


Prometheus should be an Upgrade for a SC only, obviously.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:26 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 01 2006,21:29)
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As far as a Techmarine goes, a fully-kitted techmarine is one of the NASTIEST close-combat characters in 40k. ?7 attacks, 5 power-weapon and 2 power-fist is hideous. ?Add his retinue that amounts to a devastator squad with twice the firepower (retinue has 4 models max, each with a heavy weapon), and the extra shooting attacks that he gets personally, and the closest comparison is a Librarian in a Devastator detachment (or a Runepriest in a Longfangs detachment of Space Wolves). ?

Legitimately, a Tech has a MW Fire-Fight attack, and a MW Close-Combat attack. ?His servitor retinue can have 2 Heavy bolters, a Multimelta, and a Plasma Cannon, with just 4 models in the retinue. ?It's one of the most disgusting units in 40k, almost impossible to outshoot or to outfight. ?Kinda like a gun'Fex, but it loses


With respect I think that is a VERY optimistic appraisal of the 40k techmarine in full kit with servitors. You make it sound like they are a killer unit, when in reality they have a well justified reputation for being something power gamers avoid. Techmarines are a jack of all trades, master of none, and to tool them up with lots of gear and shooting servitors, is hopelessly expensive and ineffective. Sure lots of heavy weapons might look good on paper, but in game against competant opponents it is a waste of points.

I have an Iron Hands army and have used them extensively. I like them for the fluff and because they are something different (I tend to use one lone tech as HQ, and another with 4 tech servitors as an Elites choice), but ?they are definitely an acquired taste. I don't blame other marine players for avoiding them.

A Servitor retinue dies instantly to almost anything (same stats as guardsmen) - 4 guardsmen can't win a firefight, and if you try using the unit like this you are wasting the potential of a 100 point plus techmarine (because he can't move). A dev squad is simply much better value for the points (resilent and cheaper) if you want something that shoots.

The techmarine has the stats of a basic marine (with extra wounds) rather than a character. This means he strikes after other characters, and has a harder time hitting (even against grunts), and is more easily hit himself. ?His power weapon and power claws strike at different initiative levels which mean that he will often not get to use all those attacks.

Repairing vehicles won't happen very often in a 6 turn game (and there is typically a turns delay), and to do this you negate lots of other game potential you are paying lots of points for.


As for stats in Epic - I think a Librarian could be quite suitable, and maybe the inv save for vehicles if you want to add something unique.





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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:47 am 
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Depending on what you're facing, a kitted Tech can be that nasty.  The horde-o-gaunts 'Nid army gets slaughtered as they charge in, and then the Tech kills lots in Close Combat.  Against Marines, you're right, Techs aren't all that.

If we give the Tech the vehicle save rule, how do we balance it points-wise?  I'm not saying it can't be done, that ability's worth more than a normal librarian, but not as much as a Supreme Commander.  75 points for a Techmarine?  Means the only time you'll see a tech is with a vehicle-heavy formation, though.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:31 am 
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E&C.  I thought about giving the damocles a single shot orbital barrage or lance shot, but this doesn't work with the current areospace rules, in which you need a gothic model to slowly drift over the field.  Which is why I suggested that it supplies a +1 to hit to orbital barrages, to represent better plotting of the bombardment that a ground operator can give.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:51 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 02 2006,06:47)
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75 points for a Techmarine?  Means the only time you'll see a tech is with a vehicle-heavy formation, though.

Well that's pretty much the only time they're seen in the fluff too.

I would tend not to give them a MW FF attack (Leave that to the Librarians) as I said before, the stats should represent a Techmarine with a Technical Servitor retinue interested in repairing vehicles, not a gun-servitor formation.

Thus, standard Character stats (+1 MWCC attack, invulnerable save, etc), and also granting invulnerable save to any vehicles in the formation.

50 pts.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:14 pm 
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Another new unit:

Attack bike with Multi-Melta.

Standard MM stats, natch.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:49 pm 
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Or only in my Salamanders Armylist :D

If you want to introduce all vehicles with the same weapons options as in WH40k, then you can invent stats for Lascannon equipped Tactical Squads, Missile Launcher Scouts, etc too ;)
Not a good idea i think. Only for houserules.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:43 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 02 2006,11:42)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 02 2006,13:14)
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Another new unit:

Attack bike with Multi-Melta.

Standard MM stats, natch.

More expensive it should be or make the normal bike obsolete. But this is getting too fine grained. This kind of changes should not be in epic...

They once sold the model (I have two on my desk right now), the model used to have stats... it's a popular choice in 40k... I see no reason why this unit Upgrade should not go in an Expanded Codex house-rules list.

The game's what you make of it, some people prefer detail, some prefer abstract. There's no 'should' in house rules IMHO.

(I think Leigon 4 would have said something like DWWFYL here which is far more elegant but for the life of me I can't remember what the acronym stands for). :)


If you want to introduce all vehicles with the same weapons options as in WH40k, then you can invent stats for Lascannon equipped Tactical Squads, Missile Launcher Scouts, etc too ;)


Now that's not actually a bad idea. :)





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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:23 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 02 2006,05:51)
QUOTE

(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 02 2006,06:47)
QUOTE
75 points for a Techmarine? ?Means the only time you'll see a tech is with a vehicle-heavy formation, though.

Well that's pretty much the only time they're seen in the fluff too.

I would tend not to give them a MW FF attack (Leave that to the Librarians) as I said before, the stats should represent a Techmarine with a Technical Servitor retinue interested in repairing vehicles, not a gun-servitor formation.

Thus, standard Character stats (+1 MWCC attack, invulnerable save, etc), and also granting invulnerable save to any vehicles in the formation.

50 pts.

For the most part agree with everything, except:

Don't forget the Invulnerable should get extended to LV also.  There is a good chance (50% maybe?) that any damage a LV takes goes to the vehicle, which the Techmarine can handle.  That, and, in my opinion LV need as much help as they can get.

Playtesting would need to bear it out, but I think 50 points might be a bit much.  Think about it - aside from the CC MW attack the only thing the Techmarine would do is give a 16.67% second chance to the few vehicles in the detachment.  His impact with a detachment with Land Raiders would be minimal, adding 4.1667% to the survival rate from regular attacks (79.1667% survival rate) and 8.33% to the survival rate from MW attacks (58.333% survival rate).  His impact would be felt most among Rhinos, Razorbacks, Hunters, and Whirlwinds.

I suggest making him worth 25 points.  Since he would be among the options for Commander, by taking him you woud be denying that unit the possibility of taking one of the other commanders.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:29 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 02 2006,08:43)
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(I think Leigon 4 would have said something like DWWFYL here which is far more elegant but for the life of me I can't remember what the acronym stands for). :)

It's DWWFY and it stands for "do what works for you".

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:29 pm 
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My only concern with the Multi-melta Attack bikes is that there should be an increased cost for mounting the MM.  The MM is more powerful stat-wise than the Heavy Bolter and should not be freely swapped out.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:00 pm 
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Yeah, but it loses half it's range (15cm shooting attack).  I think that makes it worth the same (without having tested it, mind).

I'm more inclined to want to save the MM attack bike for variant lists, like the Dark Angels or Sallies, but it's just as easily included in the FO article.

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 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:23 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 02 2006,05:47)
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Depending on what you're facing, a kitted Tech can be that nasty. ?The horde-o-gaunts 'Nid army gets slaughtered as they charge in, and then the Tech kills lots in Close Combat. ?Against Marines, you're right, Techs aren't all that.

Even against tyranids they aren't that good. ?The servitors will drop dead to almost any shooting and will be prime targets (unless the tyranids have absolutely no shooting which isn't very likely these days - and by the way my other 40k army is tyranids).

In close combat:
Average gaunts killed by fully kitted tech per round: 2.37
Average gaunts killed by another average marine character per round: 2.22.

0.15 extra kills isn't much, and other marine characters will be killing more if you spend equivalent points to the fully kitted tech (eg master craft weapon or lightning claw(s)). ?Also worth noting that a tech in close combat takes 4 rounds (of a 6 turn game) to pay off his points vs hormagaunts (which are expensive gaunts!). Thus swamping a tech with cheap gaunts to just tie him up is a viable tyranid tactic... (especially when all the gaunt attacks have a good chance of actually killing the tech in the process).


What a techmarine in full kit does give you is versatility. ?Best kit in my experience is extra plasma pistol, and a combat shield or Iron halo.

That gives you the potential to fire a servo-flamer and plasma pistol (which really roasts gaunts or guard - provided you also have transport to get there), or lets you toast armoured units (potentially 4 plasma pistol shots with rerolls to hit on 3 of them - if you don't move). Add to this the fact that you have a chance to repair vehicles, and the chance to damage/kill any target in close combat, and you have a universal threat to any enemy which can't be ignored.


For Tech and servitor retinue in EA, I would say 50 points (for standard character stats, and tech special ability - granting invulnerable save to vehicles in formation).





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