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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 01 2006,16:02)
QUOTE
I know that some people don't like the idea of adding extra characters to the list, but I think they can add flavour. ?For example a few tech marines running around and you have an iron hand successor chapter.
I think that it's about a 50%/50% split about putting Techmarines and Apothecaries into the Space Marine lists, with few people holding a strong view on the matter. ?Most of the arguments that I remember fall along "They are in the background material, have been in WH40K and previous editions of Epic, and we have the miniatures, so let's do it," -and- "It's more trouble to put them in than what they are worth."
Techmarine- the units save is replaced with 5+RA and it gains an MW CC attack.
OK, so what does the Techmarine do aside from having a MW CC attack and have a good armor save? ?You seem to concentrate upon what they can do in WH40K, and not what their role is in the big picture. ?Most characters are force multipliers by being able to affect the ability of the troops around them or the rules in a special way. ?In previous editions of Epic Techmarines gave all vehicles within 10cm an additional 5+ armor save in case they failed their original armor save.
From the previous editions of Epic GW/SG has toned down the impact of characters on the game. ?In an effort to be compatible with Epic: Armageddon and what Techmarines did in previous editions of Epic I have suggested that Techmarines give an Invulnerable save to LV and AV in the detachment they are part of.
For the Iron Hands you are talking about Iron Fathers which are combination Commanders and Techmarines.
I don't actually know what marines have in 40K. I don't play them in that system and have only faced a tech marine once and he was shot to death with devourers  .
The MW was added since all marine characters seem to have them, and a servo harness looks like it should supply one.
The 5+RA was added to give the guy something. My llogic was that is a chapter had enough techmarines so that some could go swaning off with the tactical boyz then they would have quite a few suits of artifier armour (lots of tech = lots of armour). Also they might have more bionic marines, again since they have more guys to install the new limbs.
I reasoned that all this better armour and more durable limbs would increase some marines survivability and though this survivability would be scattered all over the place it would be best represented by a single stand, the stand with the model who gives the advantage
The iron hands referance was merely to the fact that some chapters do have a lot of techmarines (be they called tech marines, iron fathers or the doc oc club) and that some players might want to represent this in epic
Apothacary- the unit gains fearless
Reason- the 40K ignore the first wound didn't seem right. ?However an apothacary would hang around to harvest the geneseed from the dead and his guard squad would do likewise. ?Fearless fits the bill
I respectfully disagree. ?I can see where you are coming from, especially if you apply some whacked-out psychology. ?While marines might be more inclined to take risks knowing that their geneseed will live on after being harvested by the Apothecary, I seriously doubt that would translate into the unit becoming fearless. ?I could easily see veteran tacticals, Devs. and assaults becoming fearless due to a lot of experience, but not due to a medic marine. ?In previous editions of Epic Apothecaries gave all infantry within 10cm an additional 5+ armor save in case they failed their original armor save.
From the previous editions of Epic GW/SG has toned down the impact of characters on the game. ?In an effort to be compatible with Epic: Armageddon and what Apothecaries did in previous editions of Epic I have suggested that Apothecaries give an Invulnerable save to LV and INF in the detachment they are part of.
I'm against an Inv save for a formation. I can understand characters having them, they are mighty heros and can dodge death, I don't like the idea that normal marines have a (slim) chance of surviving being hit by a volcano cannon or deathstrike missile, just because one of them has some morphine and a large needle.
I agree that fearless is an ineligent way of showing what the apothocaries do (since it makes them immune to BM death for broken units and engagement overkill), but it does show there tenacity and desire to stick around to play with the dead bodies
Promethius and damocles- from what I have read in IA:2 they are the command vehicle of the main commander of the marine force (with each chapter only having two or three of each) so they should be an upgrade to the supreme commanders formation. ?with the supreme commander being allowed to buy one of the two.
However what they do is the tricky part. ?They are support vehichles designed to aid in communications. ?Some of my ideas include
1) Giving leader to every marine unit within x cm
2) Allowing the SC unit to call a combined assault with the other two units being upto 10cm away rather than 5
3) +1 To hit for any orbital barrage that land within LoS and/or a certain range
4) allowing teleporters to reroll their teleport dice if they arrive land within LoS and/or a certain range
5)allow the marines to take imperial navy ships
These are all interesting ideas, I like seeing this kind of stuff. ?Unfortunately, as neat as they are, they either might be unbalancing or too rarely used. ?I myself have been thinking about the Damocles and Prometheus, and I thought that it would be easier to get others to accept them if the ideas and rules for them were simpler.
The Prometheus is an extremely rare variant of the famous Space Marine Land Raider. The few Chapters that have access to the Prometheus use it as a command vehicle due to additional sensor and communication equipment it contains. This allows Force Commanders to liaise with squads out of direct range and so better co-ordinate attacks and force actions. The full rules and complete background for using the Prometheous in games of Warhammer 40,000 can be found in Imperial Armour Volume 2
At first glance I would say that this variant is a Land Raider tank with different weapons and the "Commander" special ability. ?Where things get tricky is if you allow Land Raiders added to an infantry detachment to have a Prometheus instead of one of the normal LR, and if so can the detachment still take a character, such as a Chaplain or a Librarian? ?What about another commander, would the detachment have 2 commanders, or would the Prometheus make the Commander into a Supreme Commander?
The "allows Force Commanders to liaise with squads out of direct range and so better co-ordinate attacks and force actions" commentary lends credence to your idea of allowing greater than 5cm distance between the three detachments for the commander's combined assault. ?Maybe a better idea would be that if a Prometheus is put into a detachment with a Commander then the Commander has the 5cm distance requirement lifted completely. ?The other related rules still apply, so the three detachments, wherever they may be, still need to assault the same enemy formation. ?IIRC the background for the Prometheus hinted at this type of ability.
What are the special rules in the Imperial Armor book about the Damocles? ?Unless there is some compelling verbage about what it can do it might be best to play it simple and allow the Damocles to be a Commander, as per the discussion above.
After rereading both entries in IA:2 it seems that the prometheus is only an adhoc command vehicle boasting only a few ungrades compared the the LR standard holosphere (ie improved comms)
The damocles also has a teleprter homer (which is why I suggested a reroll for teleports) and the option to take either navy fighters or a lance strike as a heavy support choice (thus the navy ships suggestion).
Also the damocles only has room for the force commander and not his retinue, so it has no transport option.
They are very hard vehicles to place, especially the damocles. The prometheus could just be a transport option for a SM character, possible with commander.
The Damocles, however, really doesn't do anything itself, but allows other things to happen. I don't think it should be a commander, it is a rare vehicle used by force commanders at company level engagements. Not something to be sent with 2nd 3rd and 4th squads to act as a quasi commander because the chapter is short of really commanders. It should be an upgrade for the SC.
I suggest we try it as a leader and allow the SC unlimited range for getting other formation to be in a combined assaults.
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Tyranid air marshal
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