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Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
ayoras
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:15 am 
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The "new" rule of synapse coherancy is fine to my opinion and solve almost all the problems. Nevertheless, few weeks ago, I encountered a small problem that I find just ridiculous.

Situation :

one lesser node and 4 exocrines are grouped in a swarm. My opponent engages this formation and win the assault (naturally). The lesser node and 2 exocrines survives the assault. In cause of the coherancy rule, exocrines must stay within 15 cm from the LSN. The problem is that the LSN can't move. He can't escape from the 15 cm range from its ennemy so it will be destroy.... and it is totally logical according to the background. BUT, I find just ridiculous that the 2 exocrines will die too because they can't quit the synapse coherancy and so the 15 cm range from its ennemy. I think that a node which is an extension from the hive mind should feel that the assault is lost and should be able to command the bugs to leave (well flee in fact).

I think the core rules of nids should indicate that the exception of the synapse coherancy works with the engage action including the withdrawal move.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:43 pm 
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(ayoras @ Oct. 25 2006,11:15)
QUOTE
I think the core rules of nids should indicate that the exception of the synapse coherancy works with the engage action including the withdrawal move.

Unfortunately ayoras, it doesn't matter, as, according to the new rules, any Brood creatures that find themselves outside of Synapse range of their "parent" Synapse creatures at the end of an engage, "go to ground" and are removed.

Example: If you have a Hive Tyrant Swarm, filled with Carnifex and other creatures that loses their Hive Tyrant during an assault, even if they win, all the Brood creatures are removed from play, even if there are other Synapse creatures nearby.

I had this happen when Eldar Rangers used their sniper ability during an assault to put all their hits on the Hive Tyrant.  The Rangers were wiped out, but, with out the Tyrant, the winning Brood creatures just sat their and feasted and were removed from play.

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thurse
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:55 pm 
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Hi!
I was the opponent in this game, and I don't agree it is a ridiculous situation.
But, after checking the nid rules on this subject, I have to admit it is not clear on this subject

1)@Chroma : in fact the nids did not engage, but were engaged, so the rule you show up do not apply.

2) reading the nid 7.1 rules I came to something strange. There is no mention that you have to remain within synapse coherency DURING your turn : you only have to remain in normal coherency. The only mention of synapse coherency is here in the rules :

During the Engage Action all of a swarm's brood creature units can move out of both synapse coherency and normal coherency of the swarm's synapse creature group

So 2 possibilities wether what the intent is:
- remove all referencies to synapse coherency in the rules
- explain the synapse coherency rule before

3) In fact you are allowed to break normal coherency : see this post here
So in this case, the exocrines could have made a withdrawal move, leaving synapse and formation coherency. At the end of their first withdrawal move the nid player had to remove either both exocrines or the lesser node ( chosing obviously the LN ). If At the start of the next turn, exocrine are within 15 of a synapse, they do not die!

Weird!
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Chroma
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:58 pm 
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(thurse @ Oct. 25 2006,16:55)
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1)@Chroma : in fact the nids did not engage, but were engaged, so the rule you show up do not apply.

Actually, it's not entirely clear when the following applies, whether only after the 'Nids perform an Engage Action or at the end of any assault:

After any consolidation or withdrawal moves have been made, any brood creature units from the swarm that still remain outside of synapse coherency, of any synapse creature(s) from the swarm, they are removed from the table. It's assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control for the time being.


By definition, if the Swarm has lost its Synapse Creature(s) they can't possibly end in Synapse coherency and must be removed.

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thurse
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:06 am 
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You raise a good point point Mr Chroma!
I think it deserves a little clarification from the twisted mind that invented the rule :)
Mr Jaldon?
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ayoras
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:38 pm 
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ok, there has been a long time since I came on this board, so I don't know the last changes on the army list and this change is a HUGE change. With this new rule, my problem is not clearly solved because the LSN is still alive at the end of the assault. He can't quit the 15cm range of the ennemy in cause of its mouv (and it is natural), but all the remaining bugs too in cause of the synapse coherency rule. To me it is just absurd. I don't think any argument, especially background argument, can explain why he can't give the order to the bugs to flee outside its synapse range to join another swarm. He can order bugs to go outside its synapse range when he orders an assault, why he can't at the end of the assault? The hive mind should know that the LSN is overwhelmed and is going to be destroyed in cause of the fact he can't flee. So it should give the order to the bugs to flee.

On the new rule (the one you quote), ?it is a terrifying rule. I suppose you have already massively test it, but with the new spawn rule which limits a lot the spawning option (it is natural too), I'm very, very sceptical about this rule.

@thurse : I can't see the url you quote ("request denied").




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Jaldon
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:41 am 
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Ahhhhhhhhh, the Norn Queen says I am regenerating and getting better and better each day. (Now I can actually sit down for much longer periods of time making posting much much easier, thank you all for your patients (Spelled wrong on purpose to make joke).

1. Can units move outside of the synapse range voluntarily? (hopefully no)


Answer: No, but see question #2

2. Is the Engage order only exception to the question 1? (hopefully yes)


Answer: Yes it is the only exception

3. Are brood creatures removed from play if their synapse (at the beginning of turn) is killed in an assault or they are more than 15cm of synapse creature after consolidate/withdrawal move? (I think answer is yes)


Answer: Yes, it is important for the Nid Players to understand that Synapse IS the most important thing needed to keep Brood Creatures fighting, keeping this upper most in ones mind helps one better understand the concepts behind the Synapse Rules.

3b) Is the tyranids required to use Engage orders for this (broods removed) to happen? (I think answer is no)


Answer: No, any engage will do.

First thing, when I first proposed this rule my friends quickly determined that they could 'sneak' out of Synapse after being assaulted by an enemy, the rule structured this way prevents this abuse.

Hope this helps.....

Jaldon :p

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:32 am 
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Sounds good Hena, I'll file it for the v7.2 re-write, ad if I miss it don't hesitate to remind me.

Jaldon :p

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:48 pm 
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(Jaldon @ Nov. 01 2006,02:41)
QUOTE
1. Can units move outside of the synapse range voluntarily? (hopefully no)


Answer: No, but see question #2

Why not?

It seems to me they could just move out of coherency and be destroyed per 1.7 like any other army that wanted to leave units behind.

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