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Space Marines.

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:56 pm

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I'm really liking Hena's method of attaching armoured vehicles to other formations as Upgrades... am watching the battle report carefully!

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:39 pm

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Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

Hena,

I "ran the numbers" on your suggested Thunderer armed Vindicator, and if I were you I'd go ahead and up the speed to 30cm.

Vindicator
Type/ Speed/ Armour/ CC/ FF
AV/ 30cm/ 4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Thunderer Cannon/ 15cm/ MW4+/ Macroweapon
and
(15cm)/ small arms/ Macroweapon

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nealhunt

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:58 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

You guys realize that the BA list in the vault is based on the concept infantry formations with more than the normal upgrades allowed, right? Infantry formations with armor have been tested and works fine by all the batreps I can recall. If you like that concept and structure (and I like it very much), there is a list out there already.

*Assault formations can add speeders or bikes.
*Devs can take Preds, LRs, or Vindicators.
*Tacs can convert 2 stands to Assault, add Speeders/Bikes like Assault, and/or add armor like Devs.

I'd say if that's what you want, play the BA list.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:10 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 24 2006,13:58)

QUOTE

You guys realize that the BA list in the vault is based on the concept infantry formations with more than the normal upgrades allowed, right? ?Infantry formations with armor have been tested and works fine by all the batreps I can recall. ?If you like that concept and structure (and I like it very much), there is a list out there already.

*Assault formations can add speeders or bikes.
*Devs can take Preds, LRs, or Vindicators.
*Tacs can convert 2 stands to Assault, add Speeders/Bikes like Assault, and/or add armor like Devs.

I'd say if that's what you want, play the BA list.

I don't think that people are looking to replicate the Blood Angels, I think they are trying to fix perceived problems with the robustness of the Codex Marines by allowing a couple of individual pieces of armor to be attached. ?Not only will the robustness be enhanced, it will also make force selections seen in WH40K make a little more sense.

The "Devs can take Preds, LRs, or Vindicators" line seems to add creedance to the idea and proves the concept is viable. ?The other 2 lines are what one would expect to see from a CC-oriented marine chapter emulating a pack of blood-thirsty vampire wanna-bes. ?Interesting, but I doubt that anyone is going to push for deviation from Codex like what those two lines suggest.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:53 pm

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(consectari @ Oct. 24 2006,10:54)

QUOTE

(Hena @ Oct. 20 2006,01:20)

QUOTE

1) Cost changes (+/-25 points)
- Vindicator det, 275 (-25)
- Predator det, 275 (-25)
- Land Raider det 375 (-25)
- Terminator det 350 (+25)
- Landing Craft 375 (+25)

2) Speed upgrades (+5cm)
- Vindicator, 25cm
- Attack Bike, 35cm

3) FF upgrades (1 better)
- Land Raiders, FF4+
- Predator Destructor, FF4+

4) Armours get Hunters
- Vindicator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Predator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Land Raider det, hunter upgrade allowed

5) "And They Shall Know No Fear"
- Number of BMs is halved when counting modifiers for resolution (round down)
- Leaders remove 2BMs instead of 1

I'm thinking that the Land Raiders price might be nudged another 25 points down to 350. And possibly that hunters should be allowed 0 - 2 instead of 0 - 1. But so far my conservative side has won and I've only used the list above.

Later addtions from Hena
6)Vindicator
Type/ Speed/ Armour/ CC/ FF
AV/ 25cm/ 4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Thunderer Cannon/ 15cm/ MW4+/ Macroweapon
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?and
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(15cm)/ small arms/ Macroweapon

7) Change 'Vindicator' upgrade to 'Armour' upgrade (except in Pred. formation).
Allow taking 1 - 2 of following types: Predator Annihilator, Predator Destuctor, Vindicator.

Remove Vindicator formation.

So what is the idea behind these. One is to allow better mixing of armour within marine formations. This should make them more flexible to meet the opponents. Second to change the vindicator to be close fire support tank. This means that it is not meant to go at it alone, but support others. And with MW4+ FF it can do that. So what do other think?

This is a great list of suggestions I pulled from 2 diff. posts by Hena. ?Words in italics are mine. ?

I feel it MAY be all that is needed to make "mud marines" work.

As a player of "mud marines" being able to add 2 preds or 2 faster vindis, and/or a hunter to an armoured formation is going to help their survival rate alot.

Being able to add preds to tacs is going to give them a bit more bite & a bit more cover.

I would suggest 3 changes to the changes (mostly other peoples suggestions). ?

1)Instead of increasing Termies 25 points, charge 25 points to teleport. ?Limit Termies to 0-2 formations.

2)Lump the Hunter in with the Armor upgrade & make it 0-2. ?Two preds and a Hunter may be too much, but 2 Preds or 2 Hunters should be OK. ?Preds would then get the option of Vindis or Hunters, but limited to 1 or the other upgrade, not both in the same formation.

3)Instead of leaders remove 2BMs, change this to marines never count as outnumbred in assaults, just double outnumbered. ?

BMs are rarely a problem for me, but marines are ALWAYS going to be outnumbered in assaults and need a little help there.

Then 2 suggestions that are mine. ?
Reduce Tactical formations from 300 points to 275

1)I've heard many complain about the effectiveness of ?Tacs. ?They don't have as many missile launcher shots as Devs, only have 2 more units & are worse in FF, better in CC. ?Yet they cost 50 points more.

2)Improve Rhino armor to 4+. ?It's hard to keep these guys around as they are usually the only AT target in an Inf. formation

This really might do it. ?It's ALOT of changes and could do the trick.

I'm not sure when I'm going to get to give this a go, but I will as soon as I can.

I just went over my notes and found that there may be a change missing from this list. Attack Bikes have been found wanting, especially when you consider that the Bike is much better than the Attack Bike and yet costs equal points.

Attack Bike
Type: INF (no longer LV)
Speed: 35cm (no longer 30cm)
Armor: 4+
CC: 5+
FF: 4+
Heavy Bolter, 30cm, AP5+
Mounted

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nealhunt

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:27 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Hena @ Oct. 24 2006,19:11)

QUOTE

As to BA. I'm not interested with anything else than what I posted for 'Armour' upgrade. And I've painted my marines into ultras already.

It's just a variant list that provides a different combat doctrine. It's really just a generic, infantry-centric SM strategy. It doesn't have to be BAs and successor chapters.

Same thing for White Scars. Nothing in the White Scar army list is particularly non-Codex. It's really just a fast-attack SM combat doctrine. Use it for whatever chapter you want. I've seen it used as Dark Angels with the big bike formation representing the Ravenwing.

Basically, don't let a paint job and a goofy name get in the way of fielding your army to fit your play style.

Interesting, but I doubt that anyone is going to push for deviation from Codex like what those two lines suggest.

It's not deviation from Codex as far as I know. I'm pretty sure attached close support is within Codex tolerances. Not that it's the determining factor but Black Rage aside, aren't BAs supposed to be Codex?

The concept isn't necessarily geared to CC. That was a crude summary to illustrate the general concept. Go look at the BA list. It adds several options for increasing fire support via add-on vehicles.

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:55 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA

I can see Neal's point. The BA list does have alot of the same things that have been proposed here. It just doesn't have the armor formation, which I personally wouldn't want to give up.

I also agree with his point about not letting the name on the list tie you down.

If things in the Codex list don't end up where I'd like them, I'll start fielding my army as Black Legion. I'll leave out the demons and Proxy Whirlwinds as Defilers. It will still look like Marines and play more the way I think it should.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:56 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

*Assault formations can add speeders or bikes.
*Devs can take Preds, LRs, or Vindicators.
*Tacs can convert 2 stands to Assault, add Speeders/Bikes like Assault, and/or add armor like Devs.

I'd say if that's what you want, play the BA list.

I'll check out the BA list, but I feel it's important to note that without some decent changes Marine armoured units will continue to be a very rare sight.

If attached armour is one of the changes needed (And it can certainly be justified by the background & 40k rules) then I would be happy to see it in the Codex list.

So no, that's not what we want... we want a Codex list that actually achieves its original intended purpose (A multi-role army list, not just Air-Assault).

So I won't be mixing Tacticals with Assault units this month, thanks.

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:51 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA

I was working out a force list for a game this weekend when I ran across a problem. ?

Under Hena's proposed changes, the Pred formation, which I feel lacks staying power, can upgrade with a Hunter, which is great, and up to 2 Vindis which now have practically no range. ?They make a great close support choice for Inf., but add hardly anything to a Pred formation.

Problem is, with the Vindi short ranged now, there is no good choice to add to Armor formations. ?Two Hunters give great range, but add too much AA, 2 more Preds or LRs would add too much firepower. ?A Whirl Wind would add too much fire power with its barrage. ?

I honestly wish we could Give the Inf a 0-2 Pred/Vindi upgrade and give Armoured formations a 0-2 Razorback/Vindi upgrade (plus 0-1 Hunters as Hena proposed). ?

RBs would only add 1 or 2 AP or AT shots with moderate range, but give Preds a little more staying power with increased formation size.

Otherwise Vindis need to go back to Speed 25cm & Range 30cm

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:55 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA

(Hena @ Oct. 25 2006,12:14)

QUOTE

The whole point is that they don't have staying power. That's the specific reason I didn't give them predator upgrade. Marines aren't supposed to slug it out with the enemy.

I understand that marines aren't supposed to slug it out, but they ARE supposed to have staying power. The marines themselves and their armor are supposed to be some of the toughest units in the 40k universe.

How can I put in any clearer. I dont' expect to go toe to toe with a Russ company. Have you read anything I've posted?

I've said this 50 times before. Marine armor formations don't survive 1 contact with the enemy. If I get fired on, or assaulted, my formation is practically wiped out. It may not break, but with 1 or 2 units left, it's worthless, with or without blast markers.

I'm not asking for more Preds in a Pred formation, but they need something to help soak up some hits that can also contribute a small amount of firepower.

I understand not wanting to overpower the list. I'm not advocating bumping up firepower by adding a bunch of shooty units. Like I said, I'm willing to take Razorbacks. Hell, I would have gladly started using the Vindi with a 5cm speed increase & no MW B*ll Sh*t.

Before, the Vindi was so slow, it was a handicap to take it with Preds...Now it's so short ranged, it's still not worth the taking. You've decreased the range on practically the shortest ranged army in the game.

At speed 25cm, the Vindi would have kept up with LRs & only slowed Preds down a little.

Don't start screwing the list in a whole new direction.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:03 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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The whole point is that they don't have staying power.

I agree with consectari, this sentiment doesn't reflect the nature of Marine armies at all... it's the opposite of their true nature in fact!

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:05 pm

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The range of the Thunderer Cannon is decreased to 15cm? I didn't registrated this in the first place. MW4+ is a good idea, but the range of 15cmi s crap. It would be better if it will stay at 30cm.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:08 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
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Location: Canton, CT, USA

(consectari @ Oct. 25 2006,12:55)

QUOTE

Before, the Vindi was so slow, it was a handicap to take it with Preds...Now it's so short ranged, it's still not worth the taking.

That's why I like being able to take a detachment of Vindies.

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