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Space Marines.

jfrazell

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:01 pm

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The concept of a mission objective counting for two (if known to the opponent), seems to fit more into their character. While we can muck about making a marine list that makes armored companies cry like babies its not what the marines are about. Focusing on the mission just feels right to me, much more than creation of a new style landraider army of doom.

Honda, if we're good Wednesday lets playtest this. We can either designate the bonus mission objective or roll randomly pre-game.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:05 pm

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The double count for victiory conditions sounds the best imho. Fits the background of the marines very well.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:31 pm

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Blarg, while interesting to read I disagree with the modifications you propose. The "leades remove 2BM" is already almost too good an ability. I certainly don't want to see free characters hanging about. The 1+ activation is extremely important as it allows retaining with ease (and quite nicely with BMs). Even more so with a supreme commander.

Well, I'll admit that I didn't remember the "Leaders remove 2 blast markers" proposal that is being considered. (I should have looked it up first.) I would then consider limiting Vet. Sgt. to one per detachment. Hey, this is just merely for consideration.

While I understand being uneasy about "free characters hanging around" I would like to note that they are not unprecedented in Epic: Armageddon. The Imperial Guard get 2D6(?) free Commissars and the Orks get a free supreme commander. While I think they are on their way out as part of their review, the Eldar were getting free Leaders via the Spirit Stones.

I understand that the 1+ activation roll is important, but I think it does a poor job of representing the supposedly fantastic training and commanders that the Space Marines are endowed with. My problem is that the 1+ activation roll is not enough.

As far as meatgrinder. Marines do engage to stem the enemy from attaining critical mass. For example to prevent orcs from gathering too much (or any enemy from regrouping for that matter), marines launch counter offensives to destroy forces and break them.

With what I am proposing it sounds like the Space Marines would get double objective for the "Break Their Spirit" objective. When I say that the Space Marines would never get into a meatgrinder of a battle, I am saying that they would never get sucked up into a battle of attrition. Take out a Gargant with a supreme commander on board? Sure. Destroy the largest pile of Orks in an army? OK. Those are both effectively BTS objectives. But to get thrown into a battle merely to inflict caualties until you die or win? No, that's not how Space Marines operate.

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Morg

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:09 pm

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consectari, I have the same problem. My marines stand strong even if I would like them to retreat. Having the option of a voluntary retreat move upon reaching normal breaking level could be a solution.

I am not sold on the sergeants, too much micro-management.

I'd favor the free captains over the "Leaders remove 2 blast markers" rule as long as the free captains are tied to a minimum count of infantry.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:12 am

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Let the training and commanders really show in the army: Give the Space Marines a free commander for every 4th infantry detachment of any kind (to represent the company commander) and make the Supreme Commander a 50 point option. (Additional commanders can be bought for 50 points each as per normal)

I tend to be against free characters. I enjoy the challenge of debating whether to take a bunch of characters, or an extra formation, and I think that's how Epic should be, ie: Upgrade-based.

Also, make the commanders for the Space Marines better by allowing the three detachments that can assault at once be 15cm apart instead of just 5cm. Don't those highly trained marines all have radios?

I'd support this one... Marines have such small formations, that keeping them within 5cm for combined-charges is quite a difficult proposition.

Veteran Sgt. - remember these guys from WH40K? Put them in as an option that can be taken. 25 points per Vet. Sgt. taken, maximum of 1 per 2 stands in the unit, where a Vet. Sgt. added to a stand of infantry gives it a Leader.

This is a great idea!

As you say below, best to keep it to 1 Vet. Sgt. per Formation; basically add the Vet sgt. as a fourth bona-fide character choice for the army.

Techmarines and Apothocaries - Since maintaining mass is such a problem for the Space Marines put in units that will help: Techmarines and Apothocaries. A Techmarine would give an Invulnerable Save to all AV and LV in the detachment, while the Apothocary would give an Invulnerable Save to all INF and LV in the detachment. 25 points each.

Again, I'd support these too... Apothecaries & Techmarines both have models and there does seem to be a need for them! The ERC may be very resistant to this change however as it's an addition to the army list, rather than a minor modification. ***

Objectives - Any competant commander would never throw Space Marines into a meatgrinder, nor would they allow themsleves to be. They would always go into a battle with the intent of achieving a high value objective. The Space Marine player is allowed to pick one of the objectives (Break Their Spirit, etc.) and make it count double towards the number of objectives achieved.

Possible but may be too powerful. Certainly extremely characterful however.

What do you think?

This is exactly the kind of brainstorming I started this thread for; ideas that can help boost the army list without detracting from its character.

*** I have a question about the rules review schedule for those in the know:

- Originally rules reviews for the standard lists were intended to be published every two years. Now Jervis has stated one unit addition that he intended would be added to the Epic:Armageddon rulebook post-release (The Capitol Imperialis). I assume that at the time of rules review, he would have (And hell, may even still if he pays any attention) considered additions to any and all army lists, as the erstwhile SG studio produced new stuff.

Anyways, I use this line of arguament to justify the call for consideration for inclusion of some of the useful units that have had models released after the Epic:Armageddon book was published, yet have had no rules published to-date ie: The Techmarine, Apothecary, MM Dreadnought etc.

Oh yeah, Librarians need a 15cm MW5+.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:01 am

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That double-objective is a great idea, but it would seem to benefit air-assaulters more than ground-based infantry.

I'll second the push for Techmarines, Apothecaries, and more leaders in general. I'd add that the magic number for any 'free' upgrade of a Captain is 3. Reserve Tactical companies only have 3 formations of Tacs, while the 1st company has 4 or 5 (depending on number of Termies), and the Reserve Assault, Reserve Devastator, and Scout companies have 5 formations. Unless we don't want to give a free/reduced cost Leader to the Reserve/Scout Companies.

Another thought along the lines of what each company has: In theory, a Company should have a Captain, Chaplain, and Apothecary, in addition to a Standard Bearer and a variable number of Veteran Sergeants. That means in any group of 4 detachments, there should be 2 leaders and an Apothecary.

Although, the fluff seems to have changed a bit, at least as presented in IA2 and 3 (IA4's marines are a little different, and brought more apothecaries than other chapters normally do). In the Imperial Armor books, Apothecaries are not necessarily part of the company, but are instead assigned from a separate pool to a deploying force, as extra personnel, the same way Techs are.

*bling* I just had an idea. Tonight was Flames of War night at the FLGS, and the Brits have a special rule about the loss of commanders called 'Carry on, Sergeant!' It allows them to effectively replace platoon and even company HQ units in the event of their loss. Could we allow Marine characters the 'normal' SC re-roll, and give a Marine SC 2 re-rolls?

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:54 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA

(Hena @ Oct. 20 2006,01:20)

QUOTE

1) Cost changes (+/-25 points)
- Vindicator det, 275 (-25)
- Predator det, 275 (-25)
- Land Raider det 375 (-25)
- Terminator det 350 (+25)
- Landing Craft 375 (+25)

2) Speed upgrades (+5cm)
- Vindicator, 25cm
- Attack Bike, 35cm

3) FF upgrades (1 better)
- Land Raiders, FF4+
- Predator Destructor, FF4+

4) Armours get Hunters
- Vindicator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Predator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Land Raider det, hunter upgrade allowed

5) "And They Shall Know No Fear"
- Number of BMs is halved when counting modifiers for resolution (round down)
- Leaders remove 2BMs instead of 1

I'm thinking that the Land Raiders price might be nudged another 25 points down to 350. And possibly that hunters should be allowed 0 - 2 instead of 0 - 1. But so far my conservative side has won and I've only used the list above.

Later addtions from Hena
6)Vindicator
Type/ Speed/ Armour/ CC/ FF
AV/ 25cm/ 4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Thunderer Cannon/ 15cm/ MW4+/ Macroweapon
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?and
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(15cm)/ small arms/ Macroweapon

7) Change 'Vindicator' upgrade to 'Armour' upgrade (except in Pred. formation).
Allow taking 1 - 2 of following types: Predator Annihilator, Predator Destuctor, Vindicator.

Remove Vindicator formation.

So what is the idea behind these. One is to allow better mixing of armour within marine formations. This should make them more flexible to meet the opponents. Second to change the vindicator to be close fire support tank. This means that it is not meant to go at it alone, but support others. And with MW4+ FF it can do that. So what do other think?

This is a great list of suggestions I pulled from 2 diff. posts by Hena. ?Words in italics are mine. ?

I feel it MAY be all that is needed to make "mud marines" work.

As a player of "mud marines" being able to add 2 preds or 2 faster vindis, and/or a hunter to an armoured formation is going to help their survival rate alot.

Being able to add preds to tacs is going to give them a bit more bite & a bit more cover.

I would suggest 3 changes to the changes (mostly other peoples suggestions). ?

1)Instead of increasing Termies 25 points, charge 25 points to teleport. ?Limit Termies to 0-2 formations.

2)Lump the Hunter in with the Armor upgrade & make it 0-2. ?Two preds and a Hunter may be too much, but 2 Preds or 2 Hunters should be OK. ?Preds would then get the option of Vindis or Hunters, but limited to 1 or the other upgrade, not both in the same formation.

3)Instead of leaders remove 2BMs, change this to marines never count as outnumbred in assaults, just double outnumbered. ?

BMs are rarely a problem for me, but marines are ALWAYS going to be outnumbered in assaults and need a little help there.

Then 2 suggestions that are mine. ?
Reduce Tactical formations from 300 points to 275

1)I've heard many complain about the effectiveness of ?Tacs. ?They don't have as many missile launcher shots as Devs, only have 2 more units & are worse in FF, better in CC. ?Yet they cost 50 points more.

2)Improve Rhino armor to 4+. It's hard to keep these guys around as they are usually the only AT target in an Inf. formation

This really might do it. ?It's ALOT of changes and could do the trick.

I'm not sure when I'm going to get to give this a go, but I will as soon as I can.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:46 pm

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I think Rhinos could do with a 4+ instead of 5+ save, but the problem with that is that Predators would need the boost too, as well as Whirlwinds, hunters, etc.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:50 pm

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I would be against any veteran sergeants and apothecaries and techmarines and such. I don't want army full of characters. Those are too insignificant to have much effect in epic.

I beg to differ on the Vet. Sgt. because being able to get rid of blast markers more quickly will allow more units in a formation to fire after taking fire. Space Marines, with their small number of small formations, are more susceptable to blast markers. Yes, ATSKNF does help a lot, but based upon background and army composition the marines have to have that rule to be playable.

You might possibly be right about Techmarines and Apothecaries, considering all that they would do would be to convey an unmodifiable 6+ second armor save on units in the formation. Assuming a normal distribution of dice rolls it would only show its effects roughly once per formation. But hey, if they are so insignificant then why not make them free along the lines of Commisars for the IG? They exist in the fluff, we have miniatures for them, and they would serve some part of a roll in the army.

The double SC reroll makes marines pretty much impossible to fail an activation so it would not be that enjoyable from game perspective.

While allowing regular commanders an intitiative re-roll and supreme commanders 2 initiative re-rolls is a neat idea worthy of playtest, I'd be hesitant to go that route. It would definately showcase the strength of the Space Marine commanders, but I think it would turn into a race for SM players to buy as many commanders as they could in an effort to buy as many re-rolls as they could. Limit the number of commanders and this might be viable.

I posted my original idea in pg.1 and am pretty sure that they do everything that is needed without any major change.

Well, OK, let's take a look at what you have proposed. Is this it?

Here's my list of experimental things that I've considered. This would in addition to the list I've posted earlier.

1)
Vindicator
Type/ Speed/ Armour/ CC/ FF
AV/ 25cm/ 4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Thunderer Cannon/ 15cm/ MW4+/ Macroweapon
and
(15cm)/ small arms/ Macroweapon

2) Change 'Vindicator' upgrade to 'Armour' upgrade. Allow taking 1 - 2 of following types: Predator Annihilator, Predator Destuctor, Vindicator.

3) Remove Vindicator formation.

So what is the idea behind these. One is to allow better mixing of armour within marine formations. This should make them more flexible to meet the opponents. Second to change the vindicator to be close fire support tank. This means that it is not meant to go at it alone, but support others. And with MW4+ FF it can do that. So what do other think?

Edit: The problem that I see is that this mod would allow preds to get more predators. So I might disallow preds from getting 'Armour' update.

This idea makes a lot of sense, especially since the various formations could use a little beefing up.[/quote]

You know, the funny thing is that it never really hit me that the Vindicator squadron and the Predator Squadron were the same cost. So after really looking at this post you made I figure, "Hey, if they are the same cost then let's compare the Vindicator and the two Predator variants against each other and see how they stack up."

This is going to sound heretical, but I dare say that the Vindicator is fairly comparable to, if not ever so slightly beter than, both of the Predator variants. If I were to make any changes, I'd say change the FF on the Predator Destructor to a 4+ to account for the range difference between the 2x Heavy Bolters and the 2x Lascannons on those Predators.

Now, most people don't like the Vindicator because it is too slow and the FF is not good enough for the weapon on the vehicle, right? Well, if you make the Demolisher on the Vindicator Slow Fire, then speed it up to 30cm move and improve the FF to 3+ then I dare say you have closer to what everybody wants without overpowering it for the points.

Of course, this kind of hinges upon the idea that the Predators are well priced for their abilities...

Otherwise, your idea to make Vindicators and Predators as interchangable, 1 or 2 individual add-ons to detachments has merit. I would even take this a step or two farther: Throw Whirlwinds and Hunters into the mix since they are 75 points each also. Also, let the Predator, Vindicator, and Whirlwind squadrons stand, but allow this "Armor" upgrade to stay. That way you could have a Landing Craft bring a 6 vehicle detachment and drop it anywhere.

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:10 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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(Hena @ Oct. 24 2006,11:16)

QUOTE

(consectari @ Oct. 24 2006,17:54)

QUOTE

As a player of "mud marines" being able to add 2 preds or 2 faster vindis, and/or a hunter to an armoured formation is going to help their survival rate alot.

Note that the vindicators are now in preds on codex list.

But prior to your changes the Vindi was so slow as to make it more of a handicap to Preds than a benefit.

I specifically disallow adding more preds to predator detachment. As annihilators are good enough in their own formation (without additional 2).

I agree with this. I just wanted to make sure that they could upgrade with Vindis or Hunters.

Because of this post I just noticed that land raiders can get vindicators too. So I didn't realise that they would (under these changes) get predators as well. This I have to think a bit if it a good thing.
If you remove the Vindi formation, you really only need to add a Pred upgrade to Assaults, Tacs, & Devs as you don't want to add Preds to Preds, to LRs & def. not to Termies(who also have a Vindi upgrade in addition to an LR upgrade).

Note that currently the list allows adding 0 - 3 tanks (of which 2 are vindicators and then hunter). I did not want to change that balance.

Good point

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