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Space Marines.
Yes! 66%  66%  [ 21 ]
No! 31%  31%  [ 10 ]
I don't care, but I like to vote! 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 32

Space Marines.

 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:47 am 
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Well I'm looking forwards to the battle reports, especially ones where you use lots of Assault Marines, Tacticals and Devestators, all without Thunderhawks / Drop pods. :)




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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:07 am 
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Regarding the SMvTau scenarios I would query how much can be learned about the Marine list by playing an experimental army
This seems to be a common issue recently

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:41 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Oct. 22 2006,10:07)
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Regarding the SMvTau scenarios I would query how much can be learned about the Marine list by playing an experimental army
This seems to be a common issue recently

Well, experience seems to suggest that a ground-pounding Marine army will loose against any of the published army lists anyway.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:02 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Oct. 22 2006,11:07)
QUOTE
Regarding the SMvTau scenarios I would query how much can be learned about the Marine list by playing an experimental army
This seems to be a common issue recently

I second that.

Unfortunately my next game is appointed for the end of November but I will give a ground-pounding army a try without terminators.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:58 pm 
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I put those scenarios up because they were published in Imperial Armour 3 as victories for the Marines historically, and if the Marine list can't work for a scenario that's possibly designed for them to win, there's a real problem.  (The Evacuation scenario may be designed for the Marines to win, but since it's so close to the force disparity recommended in the Assault scenario it's tough to tell.

The breakthrough scenario could just as easily be against Imperial Guard, for example.  What matters is that people try to make mud-marines win.  If mud-marines can't win, then the 'Codex' list, which is supposed to be balanced for any army design, is inherently flawed and must be fixed.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:19 am 
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(Hena @ Oct. 22 2006,08:34)
QUOTE

(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 21 2006,00:24)
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I think that whether we keep Land Raiders as a separate upgrade or lump them into the 'Armor' upgrade, they should be available to 'Tactical' detachments, representing Veteran squads.

If I remember correctly, veteran marines used rhinos. Terminators had the land raiders.

Edit: At least that way the 40k codex puts them.

This is a pre/post heresy argument, in the original version of EPIC space marines could take Land Raiders as there transport, as technology progresses, Land Raiders seem to fall out of favour.

I personally would favour putting them as an armour upgrade. I never, ever take Land Raiders as a detachment. I see them as expensive, walking targets. A VP giveaway.

Adding them to Terminators removes the main advantage of Terminators, teleportation. So that is a no go, however devestators with Land Raider transport is something I definately wouldn't mind trying.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:19 pm 
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I never, ever take Land Raiders as a detachment. ... Adding them (Land Raiders) to Terminators removes the main advantage of Terminators, teleportation.


Which is a great pity as Land Raiders are the iconic transport of Terminators.

Perhaps (as has been suggested) making Terminators pay for a Teleport Upgrade if they want it will mean we will see mud-pounding Land Raider-borne Terminators as a possibility.





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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 23 2006,08:19)
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I never, ever take Land Raiders as a detachment. ... Adding them (Land Raiders) to Terminators removes the main advantage of Terminators, teleportation.


Which is a great pity as Land Raiders are the iconic transport of Terminators.

Perhaps (as has been suggested) making Terminators pay for a Teleport Upgrade if they want it will mean we will see mud-pounding Land Raider-borne Terminators as a possibility.

This works for me.  :D

If I field Terminators, I usually put them in LRs anyway.  I simply don't like the concept of them teleporting around, but that's just my hang up.  

They have performed "OK" with the additional unit size and LR "punch", though I tend to lose the LR's quickly it does give the Termies more time to inflict some punishment.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:53 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 23 2006,13:19)
QUOTE
I never, ever take Land Raiders as a detachment. ... Adding them (Land Raiders) to Terminators removes the main advantage of Terminators, teleportation.


Which is a great pity as Land Raiders are the iconic transport of Terminators.

Perhaps (as has been suggested) making Terminators pay for a Teleport Upgrade if they want it will mean we will see mud-pounding Land Raider-borne Terminators as a possibility.

Only recently, originally they used to fit into a Rhino.

SM2 made them LR only troops.

Now teleportation seems the prefered method, they are the best, they deserve the best transport. I'd rather teleport them, than put them in an overpriced transport. I think the stats are fine, just not the price.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:04 pm 
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I think the Space Marines suffer the same problem the Dark Eldar suffer, to a lesser extent, in that they are maneuver and mission oriented, and not represented as to their true purpose very well.

Maneuver - vs- Attrition warfare: There are two very basic forms of warfare, maneuver fighting and attrition fighting. ?Maneuver fighting is all centered ?around the idea of using movement, fast movement, or even faster movement if possible, and firepower to defeat the enemy. ?How you use the movement is up to you, but the basic ideas are to either use it to achieve a firing postion that is more favorable to you and less to the enemy, (high movement rating) or to use movement to rapidly concentrate forces so that you have more of your stuff in a location than they do.  (Commanders having 3 formations assault) ?Attrition fighting is your basic meatgrinder: kill more of them than they kill of you and survive the battle. ?Historically, Attrition Warfare has been the norm until you see the beginnings of Maneuver Warfare in German tactics at the end of WW1, with a big use of it in the Blitzkrieg at the beginning of WW2. ?The assumed tactics that were going to be used in a possible defense of Europe against the Soviet's assumed massive assault forced thinking towards Attrition Warfare, but once the Cold War was over you see the US Military start to use Maneuver Warfare more and more, with the biggest example being the Iraq Invasion in 2003 that allowed the US Military to take over a sizable country in a couple of weeks.

One of the neat things about the WH40K universe is that you see these different styles of warfare represented by the different races/armies to different dgrees. ?The Orks are the penultimate of Attrition Warfare, with the Tyranids right behind them. ?The Squats were very attrition oriented, but went the anvil approach against the Ork's hammer methods. ?The Imperial Guard are somewhat attrition oriented also, but they have the flexibility to go either way on a small scale (fast Valkyries and Vultures compared to the slow sledgehammer of SHT companies.) ?The Eldar are fairly maneuver oriented, and it shows in their rules (hit and run) and stats (high movement), but they also have a sizable army structure, giving them so mass also. ?The Space Marines are supposed to be Maneuver Warfare oriented force also, trading masses of troops and vehicles for armor and firepower. ?The most extreme example of Maneuver Warfare would be the Dark Eldar with their army geared towards high speed capturing slaves and sacrifices.

The Space Marines have many time been called "...the scalpel compared to the sledge hammer of the Imperial Guard." (or something like that.) ?Well, one of the things about a scalpel is that you don't use it to hack up bodies, you use it to remove specific pieces of tissue. ?How often do you remember reading in the fluff where the Space Marines were simply thrown into a mindless meatgrinder of a battle? ?None that I can remember. ?It's always been: capture this thing, kill that leader, establish an LZ, recon in force, assault that objective, etc. ?(For the Dark Eldar, it has always been capture victims.)

How has the Codex Astartes Space Marines army list captured that mission oriented mindset? ?Poorly. ?It got the Maneuver Warfare idea down really well with the idea of taking an air-cav force, but otherwise the list serves the ground-pounding Space Marines poorly. ?Oh, there are some units that need to have their points and stats brought closer to where they should be, and I think those have already been identified, but problems are not really in the stats so much as the unit compositions and special rules. ?I would like to make some suggestions to make the list better, without a lot of stat upgrades. ?

1) Free and Better Commanders - The Space Marines as a ground based maneuver force is directly comprimised by the activation rules, where you can only activate 1 detachment at a time unless you have a commander. ?This becomes a real problem for lone detachments going into an assault with no other detachments. ?Since the Space Marines lack a lot of mass, sacrificing 50 points a commander and 100 points for the Supreme Commander starts to take a lot of combat ability out of the overall force.

The Space Marines are supposed to be the best trained troops in the galaxy and have the best battlefield commanders that have graced mankind. ?And how is this shown in Epic? ?A 1+ activation roll. ?Wow...

Let the training and commanders really show in the army: Give the Space Marines a free commander for every 4th infantry detachment of any kind (to represent the company commander) and make the Supreme Commander a 50 point option. ?(Additional commanders can be bought for 50 points each as per normal) ?Also, make the commanders for the Space Marines better by allowing the three detachments that can assault at once be 15cm apart instead of just 5cm. ?Don't those highly trained marines all have radios?

Veteran Sgt. - remember these guys from WH40K? ?Put them in as an option that can be taken. ?25 points per Vet. Sgt. taken, maximum of 1 per 2 stands in the unit, where a Vet. Sgt. added to a stand of infantry gives it a Leader.

Techmarines and Apothocaries - Since maintaining mass is such a problem for the Space Marines put in units that will help: Techmarines and Apothocaries. ?A Techmarine would give an Invulnerable Save to all AV and LV in the detachment, while the Apothocary would give an Invulnerable Save to all INF and LV in the detachment. ?25 points each.

Objectives - Any competant commander would never throw Space Marines into a meatgrinder, nor would they allow themsleves to be. ?They would always go into a battle with the intent of achieving a high value objective. ?The Space Marine player is allowed to pick one of the objectives (Break Their Spirit, etc.) and make it count double towards the number of objectives achieved.

TSKNF - I would make the reccomended changes that have been mentioned in other threads.

What do you think?





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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:05 pm 
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@BDI

Very thought provoking. I'm not sold on the Vet. Sgt's upgrade as that strikes me as getting to 40K granularity, but the others could be handled as special abilities/rules and leave the overall mechanics the same...i.e. clean.

I will think on this more. I agree with all of your logic in your leading argument and think this is the way to "tune" the list without throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

Very good.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:22 pm 
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(Honda @ Oct. 23 2006,13:05)
QUOTE
@BDI

Very thought provoking. I'm not sold on the Vet. Sgt's upgrade as that strikes me as getting to 40K granularity, but the others could be handled as special abilities/rules and leave the overall mechanics the same...i.e. clean.

I will think on this more. I agree with all of your logic in your leading argument and think this is the way to "tune" the list without throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

Very good.

Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate them.

Don't focus on the Vet. Sgt. as a method for being more like WH40K, they are merely the excuse.  The real idea is to allow the Space Marines to inject more Leaders into formations so that they can dispose of blast markers more quickly, keeping the detachment more viable after taking some attacks.  

Vet. Sgt. are merely the name that would be given to this upgrade.  You could call them Lt. or some other rank, but since Vet. Sgt. have more name recognition due to WH40K I just went with that.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:53 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Oct. 23 2006,13:22)
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Don't focus on the Vet. Sgt. as a method for being more like WH40K, they are merely the excuse. ?The real idea is to allow the Space Marines to inject more Leaders into formations so that they can dispose of blast markers more quickly, keeping the detachment more viable after taking some attacks. ?

I really like the majority of your ideas. ?Giving marines a cheaper way to coordinate could be a huge help. ?I had planned to spend the points breaks on AV formations to buy more leaders. ?

I'm also not opposed to the Veteran Sgt concept in any way. ?

I just don't want the focus to head too much towards removing blast markers.

I don't know about any other SM players, but this isn't a big problem for me, even with formations that have no leader. ?

My problem is that my formations are virtually wiped out BEFORE they break. ?I'm not trying to slug it out with a Russ company here, just survive more than 1 turn.





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