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Space Marines.
Yes! 66%  66%  [ 21 ]
No! 31%  31%  [ 10 ]
I don't care, but I like to vote! 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 32

Space Marines.

 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:29 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 20 2006,21:16)
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If your eally followed fluff marines would not have access to allied titans or aircraft in a list.


That sounds less like the fluff and more like a typical game of 40k.

Marines are standalone players.  Unless you're playing the good guys (chaos) you don't have access to Imperial Navy craft or titan legions.  Thats just how it is, as set down by Pappa Smurf.  The present list has them as allies but in fluff terms that would only rarely be the case.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:48 pm 
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(Honda @ Oct. 20 2006,16:19)
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I think the question that you're really asking, and you're doing it in a very nice way, is "does GW modify the framework to make things more playable" and the answer is definitely. You see that in Epic all the time.

So the standard Codex Epic list is not going to change that significantly from it's current incarnation.

...but don't expect wholesale changes to the existing Codex, it is very nearly working as designed.

I don't see any reason we can't disagree in a nice way. ?:D

What Iwas really trying to get at was, if armored forces are "against the fluff" is it worth sticking to fluff to make the Codex list a one trick pony. ?Not that I have such an in depth knowledge of fluff to say whether it is against it or not. ?

Obviously, the Codex list was intended to use LR, Pred, & Vindis, as they were included in the list . ?Not only that, but they were put in as core choices, given equal position with the Thunder Hawk and Landing Craft, and no limits were placed on their numbers. ?This in itself should justify attempting to make them workable options. ?

I feel this is a point that anyone will have a hard time disputing.

I am by no means trying to make armor the only option, or even the prefered option. ?Just a viable option. ?

I don't think the Codex list should lean towards armor, nor should it lean towards air assault. ?It should be balanced :)

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:24 pm 
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I think that whether we keep Land Raiders as a separate upgrade or lump them into the 'Armor' upgrade, they should be available to 'Tactical' detachments, representing Veteran squads.

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Are there examples in which GW has sacrificed fluff in order to make an army list work?

Yeah, the power level of Marines in the fluff, compared to their Game capabilities.  Marine infantry is vastly underpowered in 40, compared to the stories.  Look at the 'Movie Marines' list from WD300(US), where a 1500 point Marine army is one squad of Marines and a Rhino!  The Movie Marines list is supposed to be the closest take on what Space Marines are supposed to be, based on the books and fluff stories, and even then, they've been powered down a bit to keep them playable.

The story of IA4 (with Det99 Elysian Drop Troops, some Cadians, and Red Scorpions Marines), has the Marines operating mostly as Shock Troops, clearing 'nids from the research facilities one by one, except for the 'Thunderhawk Down' rescue mission.  In that mission, the Marines are in two separate groups, one the survivors from the Thunderhawk crash, and the other the rescuing force traveling in Rhinos and Razorbacks.
The marine list can be tweaked but it will never be a heavy armored force.
Marine's haven't been a heavy armored force since the end of the Heresy, and weren't really heavy armor then.  What they were was a spearhead for the Imperial Army to follow behind.  To do this, they needed fast, relatively powerful tanks, like the Land Raider.  When your spearhead keeps moving after breaking through, you need fewer tanks than the guys that have to stop you, and you rely on the heavier tanks of the Army to hold the ground.
Its never been portrayed that way in the fluff (noting especially the removal of the old ironwing).
Considering that a big part of the Ironwing was mechanized infantry (which all Marines are, or can be, now), it makes sense to remove the Ironwing as a Mechanized Infantry Battalion.  The part that's left after taking the Mechanized infantry away is a couple companies of Medium armor (Predators are not heavy tanks on par with Leman Russes), and another company or two of Heavy Armor (Land Raiders).

The First Company of most Marine Chapters has 20 Land Raiders assigned to it, and there's another 16-20 in the Armory.  That's a LOT of armor, but it's not the entire division's worth that was commonly fielded during the Great Crusade.  In fact, it's less than a Battalion of Land Raiders.  Those 2 companies of Land Raiders are often broken down into 'Platoons' (called Detachments in Epic:A).  Then there's the company and change (or maybe two Companies, depending on what you'd call a Marine Armored Company) of Predators, also divided up in Platoons.  That's not an insignificant amount of armor, since a modern US Marine Expeditionary Unit (roughly 4 Companies) only has a platoon of 4 Abrams tanks, and the US Marines never seem to complain about a lack of armored support.

Remember, the typical fighting strength of a Marine Chapter is only about 4 Companies.  Let's break that down to what one Company would be reinforced with (using about half the available vehicles from the Armory, to leave a reserve):  4 Land Raiders, 4 Predators, 2 Whirlwinds, and about 2 Vindicators.  Most of the Battle Reports I've seen have 2 companies of Marine Infantry and about that much supporting armor (usually trading the Vindicators for Whirlwinds), while I bring a bit more (usually 2-3 Pred dets and a Whirlwind det or two).
If your really followed fluff marines would not have access to allied titans or aircraft in a list. You missed the key point in that statement:  Allied.  Meaning not a part of your armed forces, but fighting along side you.  Which is exactly what they are.  I can build a Marine force that has NO IN or Titan support (or just use the Black Templars list), but that does not necessarily reflect the way that Marines normally operate, it just means that particular force is not working with the Imperial Navy or the AdMech at that time.  (IA3 actually has a bit of story about getting all the forces together that would be good for you to read.)  It does not mean that Marines NEVER fight with Titans alongside them, or without IN air support overhead.  It just means that Marines don't always fight with supporting Titans or IN air support.

IA3 has 3 scenarios with Marines in them:  The first Taros intervention (a drop-pod assault too small to fight in Epic), the Assault on Missile Silo Decima (an Air Assault to clear some orbital defenses, roughly 1500 Epic points or 3k 40k points), and the Iracunda Breakthrough (a major Ground offensive, about 6k Epic points).  Of those three missions (the only three times that Marines fought, BTW), the first 2 were completely unsupported, while the third was a full-on 'Army of the Imperium' with Marines and Titans leading an IG spearhead.  Right now, the Epic:A 'Codex' list works very well in the first two scenarios, but is sucking hind teat in the third scenario (which was the only time that the Tau actually came off the worst in an engagement in the Taros campaign).  That situation is not acceptable.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:49 pm 
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(Honda @ Oct. 20 2006,21:23)
QUOTE

"Space Marines excell in defensive situations too. Their heavy armour and special training allows them to withstand attack after attack against seemingly overwheling odds, coming out at the end battered but victorious."


You are quoting "out of context". The heavy armor that is being referred to is the body armor that they wear.

I wasn't referring to the 'heavy armour' there at all, but at the assertion that they're good in defensive battles... which they truly suck at in Epic due to the unintended air-assault bias of the list. :)

There's a mention of Marine Armour Columns in the same paragraph, if you want one.





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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:03 pm 
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(Honda @ Oct. 20 2006,21:14)
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Reading IA2, there's 16-20 Land Raiders in the Armory of a Marine Chapter, not counting the ones assigned to the 1st Company. ?Then there's 30+ Predators, 16+ Whirlwinds, and 12-16 Vindicators. ?All that means that Marines can field a good amount of armor. ?Having that not be a 'competitive' option in the list is a BAD thing.


The assumption that you are making, which I don't think is correct, is that ALL of that stuff shows up in one spot when the SM go to battle.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that a Marine Chapter would deploy all it's resources in one go, but they would certainly have more than 3/4 of their resources available for deployment in support of the 4 Battle Companies.  That means that they'd deploy about 4 Land Raiders, 6 Predators, and the artillery (WW and Vindies) as needed, per Battle Company.  And that's assuming that the (rather low, IMO) numbers in IA2 and the 3rd Ed C:SM are accurate.  Obviously those numbers would go up for those Chapters that operate more vehicles, like the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Salamanders, etc.
Go back and look at what the Avenging Sons showed up with their mission, which appears to be quite typical. You're right, the Avenging Sons didn't bring that much stuff for their Drop Pod assault.  Rhinos don't fit inside a Drop pod, after all.  That assault was designed along the lines of a SWAT raid, with the sole intention of killing or capturing the Imperial Governor.
Then look at the drop on the missile silo by the Raptors. The chapter only send some of its resources for any battle, because of its AOA. You're right, the Raptors didn't bring anything that wouldn't fit inside a Thunderhawk for their Air Assault, because as soon as the IG had their beachhead, the Raptors planned on leaving.  But the Raptors brought a fairly substantial amount of armor to Taros: 4 Land Raiders, 4 Pred Ds, 2 Pred As, 1 Vindicator, 6 Whirlwinds, 1 'Hunter' (WW Hyperios, in 40k), 6 HB-Razorbacks and 4 LC-Razorbacks, all to support one Battle Company and one Reserve Tactical Company (roughly 2k Epic points of Infantry+transport).  (Almost forgot the Damocles and 20 Rhinos)  Thats about 6-8k of Epic points in support for 2k Epic Points of 'troops'.
They don't fight with the numbers that you are quoting, post-Heresy.
I can easily argue that some Chapters did deploy that much armor on Armageddon.  The Relictors and Flesh Tearers deployed their entire Chapters to Armageddon (FTs only have 4 companies left), and could have fielded that much armor.  (Page 70 of the Rulebook).  While most other Chapters did not send as large a force, each Chapter also sent enough armor to support their commitment.  What happens when multiple Chapters operate together, and pool their armored support?
Now if you are referring to a pre-Heresy list, then that is another cup of tea.
Yeah, we'd be deploying 3-4 times the numbers of Marines on foot, and probably 5 times the Marine Armor.  When the Luna Wolves are worried because there's only 2000 LWs and EC left, that says something about the numbers usually deployed.  The Assault on the Whisperheads was 3 Companies (300-600 Marines), and it was the equivalent of the Avenging Sons' assault.  During the Crusade, they sent a Company or more of Marines to do what a couple Squads are sent to do now.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:04 pm 
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What it all boils down to is what the army champion envisions, validated by JJ or seeded by JJ, and then developed.

.....snip.....

Not in the least and that is certainly encouraged...but don't expect wholesale changes to the existing Codex, it is very nearly working as designed.


Have you seen what's happened to the Swordwind Eldar list? Nearly every unit in the army has had a stat or point adjustment.

TRC has proposed something very similar with the Barran Siegemasters.

That's the (one) advantage of having a living rule book... if modifications are needed they can take place.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:06 pm 
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E&C, I think we're going to have to quote fluff examples, then game them and report on how well we did compared to the fluff version, like I did for the Taros Campaign.  Then, maybe we can change Honda and jfrazzel's mind with concrete ingame examples.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:24 pm 
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I'm happy to!

(Heroic last stands where I inevitably lose are always fun) :D

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:02 am 
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Can you throw down both the 6k of Marines and the 5k of Tau?  

I believe that both Ausura and Hena are trying to play the scenario as well.

D'Oh!!  I just realized that I missed a scenario in IA3:  the Evacuation, another time the Raptor Chapter fought on the ground, albeit with a lot more support.  Of course, facing 4 Mantas, they need that support!

Posting another challenge here.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:11 am 
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I can field that many Marines... would have to proxy Tau since I have none. Someone in my gaming circle is starting Tau though... but it'll be a while before he has 4 Mantas. :D

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:27 am 
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(jfrazell @ Oct. 20 2006,21:29)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 20 2006,21:16)
QUOTE
If your eally followed fluff marines would not have access to allied titans or aircraft in a list.


That sounds less like the fluff and more like a typical game of 40k.

Marines are standalone players. ?Unless you're playing the good guys (chaos) you don't have access to Imperial Navy craft or titan legions. ?Thats just how it is, as set down by Pappa Smurf. ?The present list has them as allies but in fluff terms that would only rarely be the case.

No, I don't directly control the Titans or Imperial Navy Air support.  If I want it, I ask nicely (or what passes for nicely from an Astartes).  If I can convince the Princeps or the IN Wing Commander to make some of his troops available, then I can request that support.  In some situations, there may be some IN fighters tasked to provide air support to the Marines, or there may be some Titans tasked to the spearhead that the Marines are forming.  Such tasking would be by order of someone very high in the chain of command, like the Warmaster (or whatever title they're using for that position).

In 40k, if Marines take a Damocles Command Rhino they gain access to IN air support and Marine Fleet orbital bombardments.

Also, Marines are standalone players in 40k for game balance.  Would you want to face a couple Leman Russes backing up a bunch of Astartes in 40k (oh, wait, that's an Inquisitorial army in 40k)
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I can field that many Marines... would have to proxy Tau since I have none. Someone in my gaming circle is starting Tau though... but it'll be a while before he has 4 Mantas.
Does he play Tau in 40k?  You can proxy a 40k Devilfish for an Epic Manta, they're about the same size!

When you do get there, let us know how the game turns out!

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:49 am 
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Whilst I don't believe that the current proposed marine tweaks (armor -25 points, vindicator stat changes) are much, if any, help towards making a non air assault SM list effective I don't support this major overhaul of the Codex Marine list.

I would like to see the changes take the form of larger tweaks to the stats/cost of marine units - particularily the armour. The most effective Codex list should be air assault/drop pod because thats what Marines are but armour should be a viable support option.

Vindicators - imprve stats so you can stick them in a LC and provide FF support

Predators - need better armour or longer range, better FF  or a greatly reduced cost to make them a usable choice for flak suppression

Land Raiders - reduced cost, longer range or even better armour. The LR IMHO are the unit that need the greatest overhaul thet are slow, expensive and with short range weapons - what other large tank, of any race, can they stand up to?

If there is support for a more armor based SM list which several people seem to favour here why do people not revive development of the various variant MArine lists. As far as I am aware we have Codex and White Scar official now, official development ongoing on the Black Templar list and unofficial on the DA

Therefore nothing is happening for - Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels. Surely the Fists would be a logical choice to develop a more armor based SM list and it, and other variant lists, can also potentially be homes for the Predator , LR, LS and Thunderhawk variants mentioned recently.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:17 am 
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I've got a DA list somewhere, and a Space Wolves list written up (that quite a few people on the old boards though really suited the Pups well).  There is a Blood Angels list under construction, but IFists are currently known for their overzealous embrace of the Codex Astartes, and follow it at least as closely as the Ultras.  This makes them a bad example for making an armor-heavy Marine force.

Again, the list in the Epic rulebook is supposed to be a 'Codex' list, supremely adaptable to whatever situation is at hand.  Unfortunately, it seems that there's a drop pod for every problem ("How do you deal with Armor?  Drop Pods.  How do you deal with Titans?  Drop Pods etc."), which is not balanced and adaptable to any situation.  Ergo, the Marine list needs to be fixed so that the 'Codex' list is balanced no matter what army style you take.

Marines are NOT all air assault/Drop.  In IA3, there were 4 engagements where Marines were present.  The first one was a Drop Pod Assault, in an attempted decapitation strike on the Imperial Governor.  The second was an Air Assault, to clear the one orbital battery that could fire on the IG landing craft.  The third and fourth were major ground battles.  While the sample size is so small as to be pretty much irrelevant, this could mean that Marines spend half their time in combat fighting on the ground.  Bill King mentions a few Marine combat drops, but most of his fights take place after the marines have arrived on the ground, and are NOT hot drops into combat.  Ben Counter's Grey Knights have the same standard setup.  As do the Marines in the Heresy novels.  Rarely do they combat drop, but they far more often drop in at one point, and advance on the ground into contact.

Ergo, Marines are not exclusively Combat droppers.  If the 'Codex' marine list can't handle that fact, it needs to be fixed.

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 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:27 pm 
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If there is support for a more armor based SM list which several people seem to favour here why do people not revive development of the various variant MArine lists. As far as I am aware we have Codex and White Scar official now, official development ongoing on the Black Templar list and unofficial on the DA


The problem is that the main Codex list is supposed to support this kind of army build, but all the armoured formations (and quite a bit else besides, like Scouts, Dreads, any Infantry that doesn't choose to drop-pod or thunderhawk it in, etc) are pretty much useless... leaving the player with only one valid build from what is supposed to be a multi-role army list.

We don't want to make the list armour-heavy, we just want to make armour (And ground-based infantry, etc) a valid choice, because right now two thirds of the list is unusable if you want to win...


Ergo, Marines are not exclusively Combat droppers.  If the 'Codex' marine list can't handle that fact, it needs to be fixed.

Just to back up this point, try reading the unit descriptions in the E:A 'codex' list. Nearly all of the unit descriptions refer to extended ground-based actions... there's support for a revamp in the E:A book itself; the army list is obviously not functioning as originally intended.





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