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We'll be back
thurse
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:11 pm 
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Hi Hena.

I understand your concern but I'm really not sure about this subject.
On the one hand what you point out is relevant and looks a bit overpowered, but on the other hand the scarab cost a lot and van be snipable with AT weapons.

Against necron, overwatch is a common order and most AT weapons usually shoot at those scarabs, as they are really powerful.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:51 pm 
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With the limited amount of game play I've had, I have not noticed the 'we'll be back' ability to be obscene by any stretch.  If the unit breaks you don't get to use it.  Marshalling MAY be an issue, but that means you aren't attacking (effectively anyway).  

The only place where I see it COULD be an abuse problem is with the Eques, which are quite tough when you include the Necron ability, speed, and firepower.  But I haven't seen it yet.

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Pipboy
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:18 pm 
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I haven't found it to be at all overpowering. In fact, I haven't used it much at all. Most of the time I need that formation to do something else other than marshalling. The one time I can remember using it was to marshall and move a previously broken and magled Phalanx onto the board through a Monolith portal. Sure they marshalled up to full strength, but since they couldn't shoot or assault they just sat there and got pounded again that turn.

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fbruntz
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:40 am 
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(Pipboy @ Oct. 11 2006,23:18)
QUOTE
I haven't found it to be at all overpowering. In fact, I haven't used it much at all. Most of the time I need that formation to do something else other than marshalling.

I agree on that point. After 4 or 5 games, I've used it once and it was because I did not have anything else to do.
Marshalling is a big "waste" of time : in a tournament scenario (usualy 3 turns), you usualy can't afford losing a whole turn to get back units.

In addition, I don't see anything wrong in Hena example. This is how should work the "I'll be back" rule, shouldn't it?
Having 4 leaders in the Phalanx is quite expensive and it's normal to gain some good points for that. ;)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Well the list does do that, but - like many things in Epic - it is an abstract.

Theoretically, you could have 4 leaders in a Phalanx that make it impossible to kill as an example.  Here is where it breaks down into improbable...
*1 Leader is from the Necron Lord. The other 3 are from the Tomb Spyders.  That is 225 points on top of the 225 points for the Phalanx.  You just doubled the formation cost for 3 more units.  Is it worth it?  Maybe as a one-off in an entire army, but it isn't something you will see widespread abuse of.
*The movement rate is trapped at 15cm due to the infantry.
*At those prices you are going to be running out of activations quickly.
*The Spyders can be legally sniped with AT fire.
*It is something you can only use a maximum of 2-3 times in a game (assuming a successful rally).
*There is no guarantee they will rally.  The Necrons will invariably be within 30cm of their enemy, which means they will be rallying on a 2+.

And fluff-wise I don't see anything wrong with a we'll be back example of the Necrons using their Tomb Spyders to recontruct the fallen warriors from that turn (or the turn before).

Hena, I understand you had posted this as a follow-up with a previous forum member.  I just wonder if this person has really seen an abuse of this ability, or if anyone has for that matter.  It seems like one of those things that looks good on paper, but has a diluted effect in the game.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:56 pm 
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I think that the problem that hena is having problems with is that there is no point in placing BM on necron formations.

Every other racy (except for nids) suffer from having a single BM, since if they fail to rally they are at -1 to activate.  So shooting the enemy always has some use (even if it is a couple of 7+ to hit shots).

However just peppering a necron formation with BM allows it to regenerate lost warriors, which it wouldn't be able to of done (without marshalling) if it wasn't shot at.

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Chroma
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:21 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Oct. 12 2006,14:56)
QUOTE
I think that the problem that hena is having problems with is that there is no point in placing BM on necron formations.

Er... it still suppresses them, makes them harder to activate, and gives a huge penalty if they're assaulted... those all seem good reasons to me to me.  And they can still fail that Rally check in the End Phase, just like every other army.

If the formation is currently "undamaged", then that Blast marker gives them no "benefit", since they have nothing to bring back.

I think this is "much ado about nothing" and has never been a problem in any games I've played with or against Necrons.

Since a turn of EPIC is "approximately" a full game of 40k, I have no problem with the concept of Necrons retrieving, repairing, and returning fallen troops in that time frame.




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Hojyn
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:21 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 12 2006,14:30)
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The thing is that We'll be back is supposed to be repairing downed robots. Not assembling new ones. The current system rewards those formation which have few BMs (and many leaders).

Hi,

I'd never noticed this, but it is a bit strange indeed.

That said, as Thurse pointed out, "many leaders" mean Scarabs. And Scarabs will usually be the first casualties if your opponent knows what he is doing. Most of the times, you'll only have ONE leader in the formation.

As for "not assembling new ones," I'd say these "new ones" are actually downed Necrons who went to the repair shop (Tomb Complex) before teleporting back into battle.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: We'll be back
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:30 pm 
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Hena,

I respect your opinion and I really need to know if you or anyone else has seen this ability abused in the manner which you are describing.  If not, I see no reason to change the rule at all.

I agree it is possible to abuse it.  But it's also possible to hang an elephant off a cliff by tying its tail to a daisy.

The Necron list has some issues (such as the scout function and cost of Obelisks).  I've had extensive off-board emails with Corey and he agrees that is an area of concern.  But this has to be the first I've seen anyone complain about the Necron ability since 4.x (or before) came out.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :cool:

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