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Custodian titan
ragnarok
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:33 am 
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I have decided that my fourth or fifth warlord titan is going to be a custodian titan, each legio should have one.  However, I am at a lose as to how to arm him.

From the stats (inspiring leader +5cm speed) it seems that the focus should be on close combat, or FF.  So a chainfist and/or a las burner could be a good idea.  As could a melta cannon, allowing it some short range firepower.

Yet such a titan doesn’t seem to be cost effective.  Though it will be scary in combat it is still to slow.  Allowing the enemy to avoid it.

My other idea for him would be to arm him with a pair of volcano cannons or a volcano cannon and a plasma destructor, and allow him to smite the emperor’s enemies from a distance..  Yet this fails to make use of his speed and inspiring.

I am also confused as to why the bell allows a titan to move faster, you are replacing a pair of 40 ton guns with a 90 ton bell (all numbers made up).  It will still weigh the same.

So I am wondering, do people use the custodian bell, or is it just in there because there is a model of it and people might complain if it doesn’t have any stats (even if they wont use it).

One idea I have had to make the bell more useful is the following.

All AMTL and allied forces that can draw line of sight to the titan gain +1 to any combat resolutions (basically an army wide inspiring, since it is big enough to be seen by the entire army).  However if the titan carrying the bell is destroyed then all friendly formation that can draw LoS to it suffer D3 blast markers.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:42 pm 
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I am also confused as to why the bell allows a titan to move faster, you are replacing a pair of 40 ton guns with a 90 ton bell (all numbers made up).  It will still weigh the same.


The removal of the weapons quite possibly also includes unseen structural modifications such as the removal of power conduits and capacitors for the carapace weapons. So there's going to be extra power in the reactor available for diversion to other systems.


Yet such a titan doesn't seem to be cost effective.  Though it will be scary in combat it is still to slow.

Under modular costings a Custodian Titan will be quite cheap to compensate for its rather specialised role.



One idea I have had to make the bell more useful is the following.

All AMTL and allied forces that can draw line of sight to the titan gain +1 to any combat resolutions (basically an army wide inspiring, since it is big enough to be seen by the entire army).  However if the titan carrying the bell is destroyed then all friendly formation that can draw LoS to it suffer D3 blast markers.

I quite like that idea, and there is precedent for similar mechanics in E:A (The Eldar Avatar).

IIRC didn't the bell originally cause extra damage against nearby Daemonic units?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:07 pm 
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If there were extra power going, I would prefer it to go somewhere useful. ?Like the voids  :D

I am, also, still having problems with the modular weapons cost version of it.

For 50pts and two carapace slots I'm getting a vet princeps and a sacred icon (head or carapace slot).  So I am paying half the cost and losing an extra weapon slot (I'm not sure how useful the extra speed is and if you need to use an inv save on a warlord you are doing something wrong or facing a shadowsword army).

I just can't see how a custodian titan can earn back its points.  It is still too slow to be a useful firemagnet, and it loses half its weapons, so it is less killy than a normal warlord.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:28 pm 
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The only uses I can see for custodian Warlords are as late turn1/2 triplemovers (Using that extra speed to move up near an enemy formation) and then being the first activation out in the following turn, Engaging a nearby unit with massive FF or CC attacks.

With a Devotional Bell, a Warlord can march 60, and then its Engagement range in the following turn is 35, not inconsiderable really.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:07 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 12 2006,20:28)
QUOTE
The only uses I can see for custodian Warlords are as late turn1/2 triplemovers (Using that extra speed to move up near an enemy formation) and then being the first activation out in the following turn, Engaging a nearby unit with massive FF or CC attacks.

With a Devotional Bell, a Warlord can march 60, and then its Engagement range in the following turn is 35, not inconsiderable really.

True, but to be graunteed the win you will either need supporting fire or a las burner.  Coupled with a basic weapon a las burner and a devotional bell will still cost nearly 700pts.

However thinking about it a CAP and devotional bell could be a decent combo.  It gives 12 FF2+ attacks plus the attacks of the praetorians.  Though the praetorians will give combat resolution to the enemy as they die (unlike shields).

you know the more I think about it and you come up with ideas the more it starts to feel like a viable idea (still not there, but it is closer)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:17 pm 
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Although not extensively playtested, there should be quite a few valid Custodian builds (Lasburners, CAP, Melta Cannons, CCW's, etc).

I get the impression that under the AMTL 2.0 rules there's pretty much no point taking a Custodian at all, your titan simply becomes far too overpriced to be worthwhile unless you focus your entire list around it.

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:06 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 12 2006,16:42)
QUOTE
IIRC didn't the bell originally cause extra damage against nearby Daemonic units?

Yep. As the bell is anointed with a drop of the Emperor's blood it forced all daemons within a certain radius to make an instability test.

EDIT: From WD 133:

All loyalist Imperial forces within 36cm of a devotional bell carried by a Custodian Titan receive a +1 on all morale and panic tests and +1 on all saving throws against daemonic abilities. Daemons which move within 36cm must take an automatic instability test.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:20 am 
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You could give the Bell the same ability as the Necron Monilit that in assaults (or if it supports an assaults)it delivers 1 FF-Attack against every daemon in 15cm?

Inspiring for all formations in a 30cm radius sounds good too.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:25 pm 
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You could give the Bell the same ability as the Necron Monilit that in assaults (or if it supports an assaults)it delivers 1 FF-Attack against every daemon in 15cm?


That sounds like a good idea.

Inspiring for all formations in a 30cm radius sounds good too.

This also sounds like a good idea! :)

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:33 pm 
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I really like highly specialised forms of attack, such as only against daemons.  Yet I think we should steer clear of them, since they are very hard to cost.

The flux arc vs daemons is useless against every army bar chaos (though I would argue that it should effect the eldar avatar) yet it can decimate chaos armies.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:49 pm 
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The avatar isn't a Daemon, he's an Avatar. :)


Instead of giving extra FF attacks (On a 3+ that would be too powerful) perhaps it should just be 'Daemonic units within 15cm during an engagement take a hit on a 5+'.


It shouldn't be too powerful (Especially as Chaos should normally be able to pick and choose its time of Engagement against the slow Warlord)... but it will require playtesting against Chaos armies as they become more common post-February.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:38 pm 
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If you look at the last post of the first section of this:

Background Bits / Devotional Bells

You'll find the agreed upon stats for the Devotional Bell combined with the Custodial Head.  In case the link doesn't work, here are the stats that were agreed upon with nealhunt blessing:

Devotional Bell: Inspiring (+1 to all formations with at least one unit in the assault within 45cm), Invulnerable Save, Leader, Requires the titan to have the Custodial Head

Custodial Head: Supreme Commander, Leader, +4 extra FF attacks (MW)

The complete combo for the Custodial Titan: Supreme Commander, 2x Leader, +4 extra FF attacks (MW), Inspiring (+1 to all formations with at least one unit in the assault within 45cm), Invulnerable Save

All on a standard Warlord, save that the 2 carapace slots are taken up by the Devotional Bell.

Background:  Since there were bits made for the Devotional Bell and there were rules for them in WD133 for them for Adeptus Titanicus (Epic 1st ed.) there was an attempt to make rules for them in Epic:Armageddon.  The original attempt (which you see reflected in the AMTL 2.0 list) had the titan gain 5cm in speed because no way could be figured out to make the Devotional Bell worth 2 weapons.

Some time later Dysartes came back asking for background on the Sacred Icon and the Devotional Bell.  I informed him that the "Sacred Banner / Icon" was my invention so that titans could have an Inspiring unit and then posted the fluff from WD133 about the Devotional Bell.  The complaints that titans, especially Warlords, should not get a speed increase were expressed by others again, followed by a renewed effort to make stats for the Devotional Bell that were equal to the loss of two weapons.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:24 am 
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Interesting words Blarg, I'll be taking careful note of them when I return home in a few weeks and get a chance to modify my completely usless Modular Weapons list. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Custodian titan
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:29 pm 
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I'm still puzzling over how to represent this.


50 points - Invulnerable Save, Leader, all units within 45cm gain Inspiring. All Daemon units involved in an Engagement in which the titan participates recieve a hit on a 5+.


This would see the removal of the +5cm speed bonus. The wording is also rather clunky, and would probably be better represented with a full blown special rule (The Modular list's second unique special rule after the Vortex Weapon rule) for clarity's sake.

Anyone else have any thoughts on how best to represent this Upgrade?

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