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Where do marines stand?

nealhunt

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:16 pm

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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 11 2006,20:37)

QUOTE

I'm not always in favour of giving points values to the different marks of powered armour tactical marines.

Heh. I didn't mean to imply anything like that. It's just a difference in preference.

I think the biggest part of the problem has been in the lack of ability to get the changes pinned down. If there weren't ongoing discussions about revisions to every list in the game, the intended process would be a lot more clear...

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Steve54

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:32 pm

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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:35 am
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I wholeheartedly agree with not adding new units to the codex list - new units such as the LR Helios, Baal Predator, TH Transporter should be added to variant lists in much the same way that BT have gained the TH Annihilator, Neophytes, Emperors Champion and LRCrusader whilst losing titans. If new units are added to variant Chapter lists then, like the BT, it is important they lose units as well so variant lists don't become codex list +extra stuff.

One thought I had for the Codex Marine list is including the option of adding a Whirlwind to Tacticals/devastators in the same way that a vindicator can be added. It gives these detachments a bit of hitting power and fits with the idea of a WWind providing close support rather than the way it is used now as artillery.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:21 pm

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(nealhunt @ Oct. 11 2006,21:16)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 11 2006,20:37)

QUOTE

I'm not always in favour of giving points values to the different marks of powered armour tactical marines.

Heh. I didn't mean to imply anything like that. It's just a difference in preference.

I know I know.

I'm odd in that I veer from liking list adaptability (Titans) to severe conservatism ('Nids), based off of the background. I'm a fan of the background, and reflecting that background in the most appropriate manner is what interests me, I understand that abstractions must happen.

I think the biggest part of the problem has been in the lack of ability to get the changes pinned down. If there weren't ongoing discussions about revisions to every list in the game, the intended process would be a lot more clear...

I think the path should be clear:

- Get the authorisation from Andy H to bring the required additional members onto the ERC (5 is the original quorum number, no? Presumably Andy would be left off). Maybe the new ERC members should be chosen by lots.

- Take an hour or so online one weekend in a chat room and vote on the 'big' proposals.

Could all be done in a couple of weeks.

Then you set a revision schedule (Ie: Champions must present the next revision ideas via email in three months) to stick to. It's lack of regular revision dates that's led to the current situation right?

Things have just slipped because Andy's not around and noone on the ERC has stepped up and said 'right, this is the schedule'?

PS: Beaky armour should have +1sv & -5cm movement... and it should cost 49.5 points.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:59 am

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4 dreadnoughts detachment (200pts, options : drop pod).

I tried out this detachment in a game this evening (2 MM Dreads, 1 Autocannon Dread, 1 Lascannon Dread; Not drop-podded)... ended up losing 5-0... the dreadnought formation is obviously underpowered and needs buffing.

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consectari

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:41 am

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA

(nealhunt @ Oct. 11 2006,11:27)

QUOTE

Sotec/Tepoc is also on the ERC, as are (technically) Andy and Jervis. ?PG resigned a couple weeks ago.

Sorry about that, I thought I'd read Sotec was leaving too.

I'm pretty much right on with Hena's list. ?AFAIK, that's what Greg Lane's crew is using as well, though they might have some 0-X limit on Termies instead of or in addition to the price change. ?I'm not sure what Sotec favors but I don't think it's far off from that.

Good, I think there needs to be a limit on Termies.

I would venture to say that Andy and Jervis won't fight anything very hard because they're largely out of the process.

Based on the current situation, that's how it should be.

As far as I'm concerned, potential changes to Dreadnoughts are still on the table. ?Personally, I favor an expanded upgrade over a dedicated formation but I'm not strongly opposed to it. ?I'd just prefer to see a dedicated formation saved for a chapter-specific list like the Ironhands. ?I can't say what the opinions of the other ERC members are.

Just as long as any changes don't call for a long drawn out reworking of the list. ?Personally, I'd favor at least a points break for taking dreads instead of transports if not a free exchange. ?I really feel formations and such need to be saved for a list still in early stages of developement.

At this point, I suspect that there will not be a new SM champion. ?The tweaks to the three core armies (SM, IG, Ork) are all minor enough that a dedicated champion is probably not really needed for any of them.

No new AC should mean no major changes to the Codex list. ?Save them for specialty lists.

I only play friendly games, so a fairly accurate price for a Helios means I have no doubt I can use it if I want to, official or not. ?I'm happy with no major changes, just pin down what needs to be fixed in the list as it is.

How are members added to the ERC? ?What method should be used to "elect" a head of the ERC? ?

Obviously one is NEEDED as Andy has his hands full.

Personally, I think the head should be selected based on who puts in the most work. ?If this or that ERC member has the most time to devote to the developement process, they should be running the show. ?Hopefully, we won't have anyone on there that isn't a capable individual.

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Morg

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:10 am

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(Hena @ Oct. 12 2006,05:22)

QUOTE

[quote="Flogus,Oct. 11 2006,22:18"]
The interesting side was the changing the transport option.
"If the formation is not transported into battle, the rhinos may be exchanged into one free dreadnought." Or two possibly?

In this case, do we get free Rhinos to transport the Dreads if we buy them the normal way? Just curious, but I like the idea of free Dreads

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Mephiston

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:44 am

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(Hena @ Oct. 12 2006,04:22)

QUOTE

(Flogus @ Oct. 11 2006,22:18)

QUOTE

I play Marines like Hena, but I add a 4 dreadnoughts detachment (200pts, options : drop pod).

I don't like the idea of independent dread formation. Simply because they are rare and marines wouldn't send them into battle without support. So I feel that there must be a way to use them efficiently without their own formation.

The interesting side was the changing the transport option.
"If the formation is not transported into battle, the rhinos may be exchanged into one free dreadnought." Or two possibly?

IMHO I don't think this arguement works. Epic games at 3000 points represents roughly 1 company of marines. If you are commiting 1/10th of a chapter surley the battle is important enough to have dreadnoughts?

Also in most battles I see 2 or 3 units of Terminators. That's on average 50% of a chapters suits which are equally rare and important to a chapter.

I would limit the formation to 0-1 and allow no individual dreadies to be added to other formations if taken.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:53 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England

What about having them Like Baran sapper. Say you may have upto 6 (or 4 or 10, whichever number is decided upon) dreads in an army. This may be formed into a single formation and/or spread around other formations.

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Honda

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:50 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

These are the mods that I use in my games:

This is the list I'm using

1) Cost changes (+/-25 points)
- Vindicator det, 275 (-25)
- Predator det, 275 (-25)
- Land Raider det 375 (-25)

Note: I don't use an increase in cost for Terminators and limit myself to 0-1 per 1000 points. Also, I have not increased the cost of the Landing Craft and voluntarily do not claim objectives with it.

2) Speed upgrades (+5cm)
- Vindicator, 25cm
- Attack Bike, 35cm

Note: I acknowledge these changes, but don't use them in my lists

3) FF upgrades (1 better)
- Land Raiders, FF4+
- Predator Destructor, FF4+

Note: I acknowledge these changes, but don't use them in my lists

4) Armour fms get Hunters
- Vindicator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Predator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Land Raider det, hunter upgrade allowed

Note: I acknowledge these changes, but don't use them in my lists

5) "And They Shall Know No Fear"
- Number of BMs is halved when counting modifiers for resolution (round down)

Note: I started using this mod in my early games and did not see any recognizable impact on the game play. I have since switched to the "greatly outnumbered" mod (i.e. enemy only count +1 for double sized) as that has allowed SM units to assault the usually larger formations and get an even chance of winning, thus preserving them for following turns. Again, the overall goal I was looking for was to prevent the SM from experiencing severe 3rd turn wilt. The other mod that Hena lists assumes that you win the engagement and the change to the SM effectiveness in assaults needs to take place before then.

- Leaders remove 2BMs instead of 1

I use this as well and it marries up nicely with the "greatly outnumbered" mod to help preserve the smaller SM formation sizes.

To date, what I have seen in my games with the above mods is the ability of the SM to maintain enough strength to contest the game into the third turn, acknowledging that they usually are outnumberd and less maneuverable (I fight with a drop pod/air assault list). Prior to these changes, the SM have wilted by the end of Turn 2 and the third turn becomes an objective grab exercise by the opponent while the SM watch unable to greatly influence the rest of the game.

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:43 pm

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
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Location: Norfolk VA USA

Like I said, I'd like to see Crusaders in the core list as they are conspicuously lacking, and fufill a function not already obvious - an assault tank - and might make armoured Termiantor formations more attractive. Don't bother me much - I can have Crusaders with my Grey Knights :;):

Still, I think the suggestion in the other thread - that of a FOL article with all the kooky variants - is a good one: it allows people who want them to use them as "house rules". Seems like a good solution to me. Then such units can be filtered back into specialised lists as appropriate.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:49 pm

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Aye, basically an 'advanced' codex list that includes something closer to the full armament & detail of the Marine list would be cool.

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thurse

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:14 pm

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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:13 pm
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Location: Dundee, Scotland

I use exactly the same rules as Honda.

Number of BMs is halved when counting modifiers for resolution (round down)
Note: I started using this mod in my early games and did not see any recognizable impact on the game play.

This had an important impact on our games, as we often play an air assault list. Usually a thunderhawk lands with 1 BM due to AA. If there is no overwatch, you start the assault with 1 BM, that is ignored for assault resolution.

This can lead to a 2-point difference in assault resolution.

On the dreadnoughts : I like the idea of exchanging rhinos against a free dread ( thunderhawk containing a tactical formation comes to mind )

Finally, it would be nice to have something pinned somewhere (here or SG?), thanks

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consectari

Post subject: Where do marines stand?

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:54 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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I'm certainly not opposed to having a "house rules" list of variants for the Codex list. ?I would certainly make use of some, like the Scout Bike that's already up and the Helios. ?I'd even be interested in trying out the Crusader. ?

I was just afraid there would be a push to get them "officially" in the list and that might hold up finalization of some of the important changes. ?This I don't want.

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