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Scout Bikes?
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:23 am 
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As a thought about the use of Scout Bikers in the background...

Presumably they would tend to operate with Sniper rifles normally during long missions... ?

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:27 am 
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It's not an option for Scout Bikers to have Sniper Rifles in 40k, but it could be a possibility for Scouts in the background. ?There's just no stories describing how Scout Bikers operate one way or the other that I've seen in the fluff.

Do Scout Bikers operate like light cavalry (European model, fighting from the saddle), or do they use the bikes to get to the point where they walk to where they're going (like Dragoons, or US Cavalry)?

I'd assume they're more like US cavalry, but I'm biased. ?I think that the US had a better horse-cavalry than the Europeans did.

*********************
Let's look at this from the other side, and start with what role we want the Scout Bikes playing in the Marine army? ?

I believe that Scout bikes should be outriders (screening the flanks of a Marine force advancing on the ground), and should lose Scout to gain the speed of being Mounted on Marine Bikes. ?(While they should still be Scouts, y'all have convinced me that they should not be able to start in Garrison if Scout Bikers have Infiltrate as a matter of balance, and I'd prefer to see Scout Bikes with Infiltrate instead of Scout)

What role do you see Scout Bikes filling in the Marine army?




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:21 am 
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Scout bikes, IMO, should be a light Cav type force ... Cav's primary missions are Recon, Screening, Exploitation and Pursuit ... ?So I'm guessing SMs would do the same. ?However, our Epic Bikes still pack bolters ...




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CAL001
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:57 am 
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Ok, for me I think that we should go with the Infiltrate and drop the Scout. So no garrison on setup. A formation of five with characters only as upgrades. 225-250 as a points cost. So what does that give you; an assault unit with good speed, it has no ranged attack and is still fragile with the stats it has been given.

I see no need to increase armour save, however I would change the FF to 4+, this represents the change in weapons from shotguns to bolters on the bikes.  One HB and four shotguns 5+, six mounted bolters 4+. Works for me and makes the formation well rounded.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:33 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 10 2006,03:27)
QUOTE
It's not an option for Scout Bikers to have Sniper Rifles in 40k, but it could be a possibility for Scouts in the background.  There's just no stories describing how Scout Bikers operate one way or the other that I've seen in the fluff.

Do Scout Bikers operate like light cavalry (European model, fighting from the saddle), or do they use the bikes to get to the point where they walk to where they're going (like Dragoons, or US Cavalry)?

I'd assume they're more like US cavalry, but I'm biased.  I think that the US had a better horse-cavalry than the Europeans did.

*********************

I like the idea of scouts dismounting and fighting on foot- however actually implementing this as a rule would need some serious thought.  As it stands bikes are best suited to representing light cav as outriders, fighting from the saddle.

Perhaps there may be a way to represent bikes as transport options of some type...

Let's look at this from the other side, and start with what role we want the Scout Bikes playing in the Marine army?  

I believe that Scout bikes should be outriders (screening the flanks of a Marine force advancing on the ground)


this is exactly how I see the scout bikes- and the best way of making a screening foce in epic is definately through use of the scout ability, rather than infiltrate.  With scout you can cover a 40-50cm line with zones of control, forcing the enemy to chase off your scouts, rather than juicier targets behind them.  This seems the very definition of a screening force.

I also admit that at the moment scout bikes are set mainly for assault- how about having stats of CC4+/ff4+ to make the emphasis less on CC, more on suport fire.  Scout bikes moving into support another assault rather than being the main hammer blow also is within the ethos of light cav.

(While they should still be Scouts, y'all have convinced me that they should not be able to start in Garrison if Scout Bikers have Infiltrate as a matter of balance, and I'd prefer to see Scout Bikes with Infiltrate instead of Scout)

Im afraid I still dont get the need for infiltrate on bikes.  It allows them to have a 70cm charge range- which keeps the emphasis on assault, and furthermore means you can be very casual about where you deploy them.  It gives you no better screening ability, but does force your opponent to be more careful about what moves near a bike formation.  Have you played with bikes using infiltrate, as I can think of a number of ways to really abuse that ability, even without the added scout ability.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:35 am 
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What J0k3er said :)

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Bombot
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:48 am 
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I think newcomers are going to find it a little weird if Scout bikes don?t have Scout.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:25 pm 
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Yes ... as I said, Scout & Infil., that's what
Scouts do ... And in SM1 the IG R/R and Bikes could dismount, but then could not remount ... ?And there were 5 R/R or Bikers per stand. ?We still use the IG Cav like that. ?We mount SM bikes as singles and they don't dismount. ?There is nothing wrong with SM Scout stands mounted in Rhinos either. ?In 10+ years in the Infantry, the units I served in had Scouts mounted on Bikes (in the 101), Jeeps then M113s/M901s in the ROK (2ID) as did the 197th Mech in the Desert and Germany. ?My point is SM Scouts can be in Bike Dets and/or Rhinos - ?DWWFY ! ?:D




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:27 pm 
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I think one of the problems with trying to find a role for Scouts in Epic is that LOS cannot be transmitted from one position to another in any army except the Tau (With their Markerlights). Thus using Scouts in their traditional role (Infomation gathering) is impossible, since indirect weapons do not need spotters, for example.

This means we have to find a direct battlefield role for Scout Bikers. My thought was as harassers with Sniper Rifles, but relatively unimpressive stats.


Oh and Infiltrate would be far too powerful IMHO.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:07 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 10 2006,15:27)
QUOTE
I think one of the problems with trying to find a role for Scouts in Epic is that LOS cannot be transmitted from one position to another in any army except the Tau (With their Markerlights). Thus using Scouts in their traditional role (Infomation gathering) is impossible, since indirect weapons do not need spotters, for example.

This means we have to find a direct battlefield role for Scout Bikers. My thought was as harassers with Sniper Rifles, but relatively unimpressive stats.


Oh and Infiltrate would be far too powerful IMHO.

Completely agree with this too E&C- would be really different style of unit and would fill a gap.

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CAL001
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:51 pm 
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Are you proposing something new in the way of a rule for scouts. An ability to increase the range or add a +1 to hit for whirlwind detachments. Along the lines of a Forward Observer.

I think that having discussed this we should playtest the formation. Testing of a number of options to find out how powerful they are and submit the best option to SG/ERC for inclusion in the marine list. There are a number of units that can be added to the marine list and a playtested set of rules and an article could be submitted to SG to go into the vault.

I would say that we need to look at the following options for testing;

1.Space Marine Scout Bikes

Type ? ? ? Speed ? ? Armour ? ? Close Combat ? ? ?Firefight ?
Infantry ? 35cm ? ? ? ? ?5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4+

Weapon ? ? ? ? ? ?Range ? ? ? ? ? Firepower ? ? ? ? ? ? Notes
Bolters ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(15cm) ? ? ? ? ? Small Arms ? ? ? ? ? ? -
Chainswords ? Base Contact Assault Weapons ? ?-

Notes: Mounted, Infiltrator

Formation of five for 225, upgrades characters

2. Space Marine Scout Bikes
INF, 35cm, 5+ SV, 3+ CC, 5+FF
Bolters (Small Arms)
Chainswords (Close Combat)

Notes: ?Mounted, Scouts

As for size/price im also drawn to 5 for 175points... ?Cheaper than a normal bike and unit foir unit slightly cheaper than a scout which is in keeping with going from tacs to marine bikes.

3.Space Marine Scout Bikes
INF, 35cm, 5+sv, 3+cc, 4+ff
bolters (Small Arms)
chainswords (Close Combat)
Notes:  Mounted, Scouts, Infiltrators

Formation of 4 for 200, only Commander upgrade allowed.

Cheers
CAL
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:35 am 
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I'm dead set against infiltrating bikers, they'd be far too overpowered in the Marine list.

And besides as I outlined above, Marines do not normally use their Scouts in a direct battlefield role (That only happens in 40k games lol) unless something has gone wrong with their plan. Scouts sneak around, providing information, and maybe hit some sensitive enemy locations in order to help the main force elsewhere.

As such, I only support option 2. :)


As an aside, what models would be used to represent Scout Bikers? Unlike the other Marine units which could possibly be included in the main list, scout bikers do not have a currently-available model, and indeed never have had one. All Marine bikers I can think of are wearing power armour. The closest approximation would be the old IG biker, which is obviously slightly hard to get hold of. :)

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:42 am 
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I too would only go for option two.  

Also to throw a spanner in the works I am being drawn towards FF & CC of 4+.  I know this seems pedantic but i think it will make them more attractive for supporting assaults, rather than being a primary assault unit for the reasons that have been mentioned elsewhere.  But you are totally corect the only way to go further is to test the different options and really try abusing them to see how they stand up.

Also i think an article is a great idea, as would a scout addition to the White scar list!

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:22 am 
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Option 2 but with CC4+

ScoutBikers don't have any CC-Weapons (same as Tactical- or DevastatorMarines). They have greater mobility (on par with AssaultMarines)but only 2 to 3 models per stand instead of 5 for regular marines, so CC4+ and not more.

ScoutBikers have higher Toughness than regular marines and the mobility of their bikes but worse armor so 5+ Armor is ok.

ScoutBikers have twinlinked Bolters but only 2 to 3 models per stand instead of 5 for regular marines, so FF4+ is ok.

And i begin to wonder about the stats of SpaceMarineBikes. CC3+ and FF4+...it should be the other way around.

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