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Scout Bikes?
Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:57 am 
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Is there any push to get them in the Astartes list, either as an additional formation in the Codex list or as a special unit in another list?

I haven't been watching the Marine list like I was when the SG forums were where the list work was happening, so I apologize if this question has already been answered.

I'm just asking because I'm planning out what I need for each company of the Dark Angels chapter.  I ran into trouble with the Scout company, and can't decide whether to include Scout Bikes in the list or not.

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CAL001
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:11 pm 
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Why not have a crack at writing them up and we can do some playtesting. Use them as house rules to start and see where we go from there. I like the idea of scout bikes, it makes them a more worth while choice with the speed they would then have.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:28 pm 
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Wheren't there rules for Scoutbikes in an Fanatic article?

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CAL001
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:31 pm 
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I thought I might have a crack.

Space Marine Scout Bikes

Type ? ? ? Speed ? ? Armour ? ? Close Combat ? ? ?Firefight ?
Infantry ? 35cm ? ? ? ? ?5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5+

Weapon ? ? ? ? ? ?Range ? ? ? ? ? Firepower ? ? ? ? ? ? Notes
Bolters ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(15cm) ? ? ? ? ? Small Arms ? ? ? ? ? ? -
Chainswords ? Base Contact Assault Weapons ? ?-

Notes: Mounted, Scout, Infiltrator

Right, so as to the stats, I dont think they should have the same stats as normal bikes due to the difference in skill levels of Scouts and Marines. As to cost, I am unsure as to whether they should be more or the same as the bike squad. I am leaning towards slightly more. Although their stats are lower, their abilities are higher. So maybe a formation of 4 for 225. That seems an awful increase of 75 points for the mobility. As far as upgrades go, I think limiting it to characters is the way to go.

Also Lion, have you looked at incorporating the Heavy Flamer Attack Bike ito your Raven Wing. I haven't looked at any stats for this yet. I am looking for some advice.

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CAL

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:49 pm 
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This are the same stats as in the FO76 article except that your Scoutbikes have Infiltrator. The article suggests the same cost and formation-size as the regular Bike Detachment.




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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:05 am 
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Using the 40k stats as a baseline, Scout Bikes are a little better in CC than regular Marines but don't have the option of attack bikes or all the shooty goodies of regular Bikes.  In addition, they have the Scout Universal Special Rule, IIRC.  Scout in 40k is most closely approximated by Infiltrate in E:A, so I feel that Scout Bikers SHOULD have infiltrate.

The other thing I'd change from CAL001's proposal is to remove the Attack Bike upgrade.  So, we're looking at:

Space Marine Scout Bikes
INF, 35cm, 5+sv, 3+cc, 4+ff
bolters (Small Arms)
chainswords (Close Combat)
Notes:  Mounted, Scouts, Infiltrators

Formation of 4 for 200, only Commander upgrade allowed.

Note that I increased the statline slightly (+1 to both CC and FF numbers, to be the equal of Marine Bikes), as Marine Scouts have the 'Marine statline' except for the lack of power armor (so they still have the 5+ save of Scouts).  Scouts can be given the same shooting ability as a Tactical squad (bolters+ML) or the same CC ability as an Assault squad (BP/CCW), and Scouts have better mobility through cover.  Assault Squads move faster, but Scouts can start closer to the enemy.  Scout Bikes can't get the same Special Weapons that Marine Bikes can, but Scout Bikes can be made better in either CC (give them all Chainswords) or FF (Give them all Shotguns or Bolters) than Marine Bikes.  They really are that much better than regular Bikes.

**************************

Heavy Flamer on an Attack Bike?  Where'd that come from?

The Dark Angels can take the Heavy Flamer/Multimelta Speeder Tornado, the HB/HF, or the MM/AC combo, but why would anyone want that when you can have the HB/AC version?

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:39 am 
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Hey lion- great idea.  This is something i was thinking of the other day, particularly for the whitescar list.  However I'm afraid im with hena on the infiltrate.  Regardless of what best approximates 40k, a 70cm charging/85cm ff unit is way too powerful in epic- no other unit AFIK combines infiltrate with such a long move.

Looking at the proposed stats you have only dropped armour by one, but added the significant advantages of scout and infiltrate all for an increase of 10 points per bike.  These are of a similar cost to whitescar bikes (8 for 400) but way more powerful.

Scouts in codex SM armies should be more fragile, less shooty and cheaper per individual unit than normal marines.  How about:

Space Marine Scout Bikes
INF, 35cm, 5+ SV, 3+ CC, 6+FF
Shotguns (Small Arms)
Chainswords (Close Combat)

Notes:  Mounted, Scouts

Cost: 150 for 4  

This way there is little change in the base stat line (+1 CC/-1 FF which is in line with the tac/assault shift).  

At a push to offset the lost infiltrator, transport and hb perhaps squad size could be pushed up to 175 for 5.  This equates to each scout bike being slightly cheaper than a normal scout which is also in line with the SM bike VS tactical costings.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:29 am 
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Interesting concept and there should be Scout Bikes ... it's "historically" accurate and makes logical sense ...

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:57 am 
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Sure, but look what that unit actually is.  4-5 bikes, with no ranged combat capabilities.  Maybe if a pair of formations+Commander jumped another, smaller unit, they'd be deadly.  Just like a Thunderhawk-dropped air assault, without needing a THawk to make it happen.  

Hmmmm... now that I look at it, the price needs to go up.  Assault (175) + Devastator (250) + Commander (50) + Thunderhawk (200) is 675; and fast-moving, Infiltrating Scout Bikers should be close to that (well, maybe minus most of the cost of the THawk, since they don't have the 2DC with 4+RA for protection).  Probably a minimum of 250-275 points for 5, and I'd prefer a unit of 4 for 250, to further differentiate them from Marine Bikes.  This puts the combination of 2 Scout Bikers + Commander at 550-600.  Does that sound better?

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:01 am 
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J0k3r:  Here's the thing about Scout Bikes.  They're Scouts riding Marine Bikes.  This means they still have 6 BS4 boltguns (well, 3 twinlinked) in the stand.  This makes their FF equal to that of Marine Bikes.  They don't have access to Attack Bikes, so they have no ranged attack capabilities.  The biggest thing that Scout Bikers can get that Marine Bikes can't is Chainswords.  This means that Scout Bikers should have a better CC stat, and following the example of Assault Marines, Scout Bikes should have a 2+CC to the Marine Bikes 3+CC.  That sounds extreme, but it follows precedent.  (I may be persuaded that 2+CC is overkill, though)

That Air Assaulting Assault+Devastator+Commander doesn't have the same reach once they hit the ground, but they can drop anywhere.  Infiltrating Scout Bikes are the ground-based equivalent of the Assault+Devastator+Commander Air Assault.  That's why I costed their combined formation (2xScout Bikes+Commander) at nearly the same as the entire Air Assault formation, Thunderhawk included.

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Bombot
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:10 am 
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The Marine bikes in Epic have chainswords.  So 3+CC for the Socut bikes is plenty good enough.

I too think they should not be allowed infiltrate.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:13 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 09 2006,07:01)
QUOTE
That Air Assaulting Assault+Devastator+Commander doesn't have the same reach once they hit the ground, but they can drop anywhere.  Infiltrating Scout Bikes are the ground-based equivalent of the Assault+Devastator+Commander Air Assault.  That's why I costed their combined formation (2xScout Bikes+Commander) at nearly the same as the entire Air Assault formation, Thunderhawk included.

Sorry, i completely disagree here.  Firstly scouts are neonate marines so conceptually and fluff wise they should be cheaper and weaker than equivalent marine formations.  Secondly what role are these meant to fulfill?  I would like to se them as a cheap, light flank protection/screening formation, not shock troops- scouts should not fill this role.

6 BS4 boltguns (well, 3 twinlinked) in the stand.  This makes their FF equal to that of Marine Bikes.
 

Just because 40k does it this way does not mean we should.  The balance of epic needs to be considered first and foremost, hence the dropping of FF as there is already a bike formation that has good assault and ff and is designed to be used in a shock role.  

Fluff wise Its easy enough to suggest that the scouts are riding stripped down marine bikes.

Ive also stated my opposition to infiltrate as wel- as hena points out it creates some horrible synergies with a 35cm move unit.  Imagine having 2 bike units garrisoned near to each other, one with captain- then combined assaulting the enemy in the DZ.  Could be a real game breaker.




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thurse
 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Hi!
I like the idea of scout bikes too. I did not play 40k a lot after the V2, where IIRC scout bikes did not exist. So if they exist now, let's go

1) IMHO the best ability to represent a scout unit is the scout ability... :). Extremely good scouts can have the teleport ability to represent how they hide behind enemy lines. I don't think it should apply to scout bikes
2) You should play against  the feral orks and their boars, they are quite unbalanced with their 25cm move + infiltrator. So 70cm range is too much, and a bit contradictory with the spirit of the game IMHO, where assaults need preparation

I woud see them the way J0k3r described them. I like the 4-unit formation : it makes them different from the marine bikes
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