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necrons on ebay

 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:52 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 13 2006,00:53)
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Nope, someone gazumped me in the last three seconds.

I'll offer a dollar more if you want... these ebay things aren't legally binding you know. :)

Sorry you got outbid at the end. I do have one question, if you would have paid $1 more why didn't you bid $1 more to begin with?

Also at the sake of starting a debate, I do want to point out that other then Real Estate that is specifically marked as such, all bids and auction offers on eBay are legally binding. At least in the EU and the USA they are. You agree to such when you join and each time you open an auction or bid. You might want to read what you are agreeing to on their site.

Now of course we all know the reality is, for a $10 auction I would not spend the time or money to take you to court, but that is reality and not reflective of the fact I could.

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:56 am 
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Sorry you got outbid at the end. I do have one question, if you would have paid $1 more why didn't you bid $1 more to begin with?


Because I am a fool, a fool I say! :D

I'd happily pay a considerable margin more, but gazumping is gazumping, and I didn't expect the price to jump 800% in a single bid.

I'd prefer it if any bid on an ebay auction extended the life of the auction by another 60 seconds, it'd solve such things.

Also at the sake of starting a debate, I do want to point out that other then Real Estate that is specifically marked as such, all bids and auction offers on eBay are legally binding. At least in the EU and the USA they are. You agree to such when you join and each time you open an auction or bid. You might want to read what you are agreeing to on their site.

Sellers always reserve the right not to sell to any bidder they like, regardless of the end status of the auction.

Likewise, the buyer can choose to not pay / send back the goods for a full refund any time during the 7 days following the auction's completion, and the seller is legally obliged to comply with the erstwhile bidder's demands.

At least in the UK. :)





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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:08 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 13 2006,01:56)
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Sellers always reserve the right not to sell to any bidder they like, regardless of the end status of the auction.

Likewise, the buyer can choose to not pay / send back the goods for a full refund any time during the 7 days following the auction's completion, and the seller is legally obliged to comply with the erstwhile bidder's demands.

At least in the UK. :)

Interesting, that is not how I understood the agreement when I was looking at the differances between the US and UK sites. But then maybe I did not understand it.  :;):

Here are the section that made me believe that it was as binding in the EU/Uk as here in the states:



Bidding and Buying.

As a buyer, you have a legal obligation to complete a transaction with a seller:

if you purchase an item through one of our fixed price formats; or

if you are the highest bidder at the end of an auction-style listing (meeting the applicable minimum bid or reserve requirements and including any bid that becomes the highest after a valid bid retraction) and your bid is accepted by the seller, unless the item is listed in a category under our Non-Binding Bid Policy or the transaction is prohibited by law or by this User Agreement.

By bidding on an item you agree to be bound by the conditions of sale included in the item's description provided that those conditions of sale are not in breach of this User Agreement or otherwise unlawful. Bids are only retractable in exceptional circumstances, such as when the seller materially changes the item's description after a bid is placed, a clear typographical error is made, or you cannot authenticate the seller's identity. Please refer to our Bid Retraction Policy for further clarification. As buyer, you must ensure that you are legally able to bid for and buy any item that you bid for.



Listing and Selling.



5.2 No Cancellation. You acknowledge that we will commence supplying our services to you as soon as you have sent a "Sell Your Item" form to us, and you recognise that you will not have the right to cancel any listing under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 or any equivalent legislation in your jurisdiction.



5.3 Binding Bids. A seller who receives at least one bid at or above the stated minimum bid price (or in the case of reserve auctions, at or above the reserve price) must complete the transaction with the highest bidder on completion of the listing, unless: (a) the item is listed in a category under our Non-Binding Bid Policy; (b) the buyer fails to meet the conditions of the seller's listing (such as payment method); or © the seller cannot authenticate the buyer's identity.



I took these sections to mean the normal protections are given up as part of your becoming a member and by posting a bid or posting an auction. When you agree to willingly give up rights most courts will enforce what you agree to as a contrct per say. But then I am not a lawyer in the UK and there may be things I do not understand.  :)

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:21 am 
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I'm not entirely familiar with auction law, but under normal transaction circumstances a contract is never closed until both sides have exchanged goods and / or promise of services. At any time up until this point (The invitation to treat, the bidding process, the final offer) , either side can back out. In this sense, the ebay process is simply a bidding forum, and not a binding contract in itself.

And like I mentioned above, buyers online have a 7-day protection that runs beyond the completion date.

Possibly auctions come under a different section of the law that negates your ability to back out once the hammer goes down, though without a material exchange taking place I can't see offhand how a seller could be legally bound until the moment the buyer has paid, unless there is a specific clause in uk/eu law dealing with auction procedures.

This is all based on my possibly misremembered memory of reading that any contract that contravenes the law (For example, gives up some of your rights) is not binding. It's been a while since I read any law however. :)

Ie: The seller can put 'no returns' in his auction, but he is still obliged to take a return under the Distance Selling Regulations, no matter what, he can't write a contract that ignores the law.





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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:39 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 13 2006,02:21)
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I'm not entirely familiar with auction law, but under normal transaction circumstances a contract is never closed until both sides have exchanged goods and / or promise of services. At any time up until this point (The invitation to treat, the bidding process, the final offer) , either side can back out.

And like I mentioned above, buyers online have a 7-day protection that runs beyond the completion date.

Possibly auctions come under a different section of the law that negates your ability to back out once the hammer goes down, though without a material exchange taking place I can't see offhand how a seller could be legally bound until the moment the buyer has paid, unless there is a specific clause in uk law dealing with auction procedures.

Ah I see where you are going. Interesting angle.

The point of view I think eBay is using (And who knows if it would stand up to a real court action  :;): ) is that this contract is between them (eBay) and you. And that contract sets the boundaries you agree to be bound by when conduction auction or posting a bid.

The exchange is between you and them (eBay). The access to their service has intrinsic value. You proved you received this value (access to the service) when you posted a bid or auction. They gave and you accepted a service and thus you have a valid contract. In so doing you further agreed to wave certain rights as outlined in the service agreement. Or I think their argument would go something like that.  :D

Thus if this stands up in a court then your obligation to follow through is established and becomes legally binding.

Of course this is all moot because we all know many agreements can be broken once they land in a court.  :;):

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:10 am 
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The analogy I'd use is that a seller is just renting shop space from ebay's mega-mall... not every customer who haggles with the shopkeep in a mall is obliged to buy!

IIRC you don't have to pay anything to sign up to ebay as a bidder, signing up is free, so the bidder cannot be beholden to ebay on each individual contract until such time as they pay ebay (Via the cut ebay takes from each transaction).

Unless, as I say, there is a specific clause in law that deals with auctions...

I'd find it hard to believe that Ebay would write a contract that is invalid in the UK, but then again, I know about the nefarious deeds Paypal (An ebay subsidiary company) regularly gets up to, so I'm a little skeptical as to the extent of their powers in negating trader's rights.


They gave and you accepted a service and thus you have a valid contract.


The important thing about uk law at least is that a contract is not completed until *both* sides have given something into the trade.

A gift or a free service cannot normally constitute a binding contract, so simply using their free service is not enough, if ebay follows normal contract rules then you have to give ebay something in return for there to be a contract when you post an auction.


Ie: Saying you'll give a house to your friend for free is not a legal contract, but if you say 'give me that apple and I'll give you my house' and then your friend gives you an apple, then it's a legally binding contract.

The two sides of the contract do not have to be rationally equal, but there has to be reciprocal trade or there's no contract at all... that's why you sometimes see huge business sold for a penny, just to make the contract binding.





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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:03 pm 
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Anyone who watches Kathy Griffin's My Life on the D List on the Bravo channel knows that many eBay bidders will back out of paying. ?She was auctioning off a week's stay with her in her home (a dumb idea, but not that different from a BnB). ?The top *50* bidders for her auction backed out, so they declared the auction null and had her re-list! ?She was most distessed, but it's a case of Caveat Seller!

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:31 pm 
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(Suvarov454 @ Sep. 13 2006,13:03)
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Anyone who watches Kathy Griffin's My Life on the D List on the Bravo channel knows that many eBay bidders will back out of paying.  She was auctioning off a week's stay with her in her home (a dumb idea, but not that different from a BnB).  The top *50* bidders for her auction backed out, so they declared the auction null and had her re-list!  She was most distessed, but it's a case of Caveat Seller!

What's more is that I know for certain that bidders are fully allowed to do so under law, it's ludicrous that ebay tries to make out the opposite.

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 13 2006,05:31)
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(Suvarov454 @ Sep. 13 2006,13:03)
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Anyone who watches Kathy Griffin's My Life on the D List on the Bravo channel knows that many eBay bidders will back out of paying. ?She was auctioning off a week's stay with her in her home (a dumb idea, but not that different from a BnB). ?The top *50* bidders for her auction backed out, so they declared the auction null and had her re-list! ?She was most distessed, but it's a case of Caveat Seller!

What's more is that I know for certain that bidders are fully allowed to do so under law, it's ludicrous that ebay tries to make out the opposite.

eBay has never claimed that anyone other then the top bid is obligated. In fact they have communicated otherwise many times.

This is a most interesting conversation. However this has gon way off topic so E&C please respond to me on email so I can explore more if you will.

Question for email: How do POs work in the UKthen? Do they not hold any obligation ever?

In the US, I give a quote that is an offer, you send me a PO that is an acceptance of that offer. No real money or in fact anything other then our agreement that we are now in agreement has exchanged hands and yet we are now under contract and are seen by law to have an agreement. Even though the exchange of real goods or services may not take place right away.

So does this mean all my POs in the UK are usless, or does an agreement based on expected value count in the UK?

Like I said though please repond by email as I want to take the "Way off topic" of the forum.  :D

dafrca

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:17 pm 
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Will do Sir! :)

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:00 pm 
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Contract law is the basis of auction law.  An auction is essentially a method for negotiating a sales contract.

Contract law 101:
A contract requires 3 things - an offer, acceptance and consideration.  The seller makes an offer by putting it up for sale.  The Bidder accepts that offer by bidding.  As there is an exchange of goods for money contemplated, there is obviously consideration.  Ergo, bidding creates a contract.

However, auction law contains a few exceptions:

1)  Once started the seller cannot retract the offer unless it is issued as a reserve.
2)  The bidder can retract a bid up until the gavel falls.
3)  Once the gavel falls, it's a done deal.
4)  Many standard protections do not exist in an auction.  For example, "cooling off period" laws for major purchase contracts do not apply to auction purchases.  If you buy a car at an auction, for instance, title transfers immediately on the gavel.

That's from the US UCC.  There might be a substantial difference in the UK but I rather doubt it as it's based on English Common Law.

There may be other statute-specific protections that apply.  For example, there might be laws enacted specific to online auctions or special penalties imposed on fraudulent internet transactions (parallel to mail fraud in the US).

Ebay hammers the moral angle and uses technicality to imply obligations that don't necessarily exist.  Specifically, while the definition of a bid is acceptance of the offer and therefore technically creates a contract, auction law has the noted exception for bidders backing out.  Ebay omits the "...but you can back out" part for a very good reason.

Only the top bid is in force.  Once you are outbid your acceptance no longer exists and there is no contract.  That means that if the top bidder retracts NO BIDS ARE IN FORCE, effectively negating the auction.  Clearly, an auctioneer is morally obligated to try to get the next highest bidder to re-bid but there is no obligation for the bidder to do so.

Hopefully, the ramifications of that are obvious and it's clear why eBay doesn't want that known.

===

Isn't it great having a contract analyst around?  Especially one that's recently been looking into antique car auctions?

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Thanks for the clarity Neal!

I knew Ebay was being dodgy somewhere in there! :D

IIRC the normal retail cooling off period was extended to online sales/auctions in the uk in 2001, but only granting 7 days instead of the normal 14.


PS: Consideration is indeed a concept that exists in UK law... I was trying to describe it above but had forgotten the exact term. :)

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:23 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 13 2006,12:00)
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Isn't it great having a contract analyst around? ?Especially one that's recently been looking into antique car auctions?

Oh yeah.  :cool:

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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:09 pm 
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Uhm... just one thing: unless something changed in the various legalese documents Ebay feeds to its members, I have always had a very clear idea of the fact that if the top bidder backs out , subsequent bidders have no obligation whatsoever to honour their bids.

[Half an hour later]... ok you're right. Those scums have removed any clear indication that if you're not the highest bidder you're not under any obligation.


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 Post subject: necrons on ebay
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:45 pm 
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I wouldn't call them scum over that.  Auctions are and pretty much always have been the ultimate in "caveat emptor" situations.

I do believe that if you bid you have a moral obligation to follow through with it and it is an expense to eBay if you don't.  They are simply trying to avoid issues that put them in a precarious ethical position and hurt their bottom line.  I don't blame them for not advertising something that screws with their entire business model.

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