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Coordinated fire
sampy
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:28 pm 
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We have not noticed any balance problems what comes in Co-ord-fire.

My good friend J won 3-0 with his IG agaist my tau at wednesday evening. He had absolutely no trouble agaist Co-fire.... :D  Well, my list was pretty bad agaist IG in the first place, so that was not maybe a good example...but still.

Hena, could you think that the problem in that game between you and asaura was not co-fire, but your nid armys bad ability to take incoming fire at first place..?

And I have not heard that kind of news from anyone in this forum...

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 pm 
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I've expressed concerns over it in the past.  It seems that the consensus playtest experience is that while it's hard to rely on it that when it comes together it is wicked.  Theoretically it's hard enough to pull off that if you are successful you deserve the benefits.

I'd say at a guess that pulling it off against a horde of Tyranids is probably a lot easier than against most armies, which might account for the discrepancy in Hena's experience.

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Honda
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:11 pm 
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To echo some of Neal's comments, I only use Co-fire occasionally because I find that my opponents punish me rather severely when I start yielding in the areas of number of activations.

Has it been effective when pulled off? Yep, it sure has. However, it isn't guaranteed and in a recent game, I was able to pull the fire of two Morays, the Scorpionfish, and a FW cadre, got ONE, COUNT E'M, ONE hit which was saved. I was then way down on activations (I was outnumbered from the beginning) and got slapped around the rest of the turn.

It can work. It takes work to set up the shot, which then tends to open up your flanks and leave you vulnerable to counter-attacks, because it also requires concentrating your forces. I would suspect that unless you have artillery to take advantage of that bunching up, then it could prove to be painful.

I also think that it is more effective against some armies than others. I do remember using it quite heavily against our local Tyranid player, for the same reasons you (Hena) provided, which is a Tau activation advantage. Against Orks, Eldar (tougher to line up shots), and IG, I have to have a really good reason.

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asaura
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:09 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 08 2006,14:37)
QUOTE
I'm starting to be more and more sceptical that the this is balanced. That ability is a monster. If gives potential 6 activations before other can have a say. And with 15cm range, there is no downside of being losing initiative and being intermingled. With 5cm range you would get it. With 10cm the PF will still be intermingled. It should be downgraded I think. What does it matter that you use large amount of activations as you will annihilate the enemy (or escape if being near for CC).

As others have said, CF is more useful against the 'nids than against shooting armies. In my games vs the 'nids, I've routinely put 6 formations up "in harms way" and then used CF to immediately activate them at the start of the next turn. I can use the CF to move them clear of danger or at least clear any intermingling and I get to shoot with everyone, even if they subsequently get eaten.

One possible downgrade option would be to limit CF to once per turn. Another is the 5 cm range, just like Hena suggests. However, I am not quite convinced that the ability needs to be toned down. It isn't nearly as useful against other opponents. It does work very well against LatD and 'nids, and (presumably) Orks.

(BTW, the story about bringing down a Warlord was not based on CF, and the thing did get to activate - once. My tournament Tau army is designed to kill a Warlord on turn 1)
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Honda
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:02 am 
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So you had a bit of a bad luck. Well haven't we all and then some in my case . You should see my dice rolls in action sometimes. Bad luck isn't however a factor when trying to balance things.


And my intent was not to use bad dice as the balancing factor. What I would like to emphasize is that whether you do well or not, you have placed yourself at a disadvantage from an activation perspective and that is a real. Shame on your opponent if they do not take advantage of the situation.

Obviously, it is easier to capitalize on with some armies than others, but the Tau player needs to use the rule judiciously because there are consequences, whether they are demonstrated or not.

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Honda
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:04 pm 
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I fail to see how this is not relevant with using commander? Which is what the coord ability is a replacement for. The commander does the same thing for any other army. But there is still the advantage (with coord) that you are not intermingled (you can, but you don't have to) if you fail to activate. As you are with commander.


I'm not denying that Co-fire is a replacement for commander. If I gave you that impression, then I apologize.

However, the Co-fire ability was designed to provide the Tau with an equivalent capability as Commander, but in line with Tau design principles.

What you are not considering is the overall risk of causing three Tau units to become intermingled as a result of this rule. The intermingling of such produces an unwarranted vulnerability to follow ?up assaults. Tau players would just stop using the rule.

I don't think I have to argue how defenseless Tau are in assaults.

So, to put the shoe on the other foot, I have yet to hear of or experience an unbalancing effect by using Co-fire. It has advantages that are balanced with disadvantages.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:52 pm 
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So Hena, what you've said so far is you always play Tau with your nids and you always take large expensive formations so have a lower activation count. I'm starting to think that it's not the Co-ord fire rule that needs work - sounds like you need to re-tool your army.
Sorry mate, but you always seem to be asking for the Tau to be toned down and from this I now understand that it's not the list.

What I've found so far:

Co-ord vs Eldar can = crushing losses due to activations and the fragility of the Tau.

Co-ord vs Guard can be useful, but again, a bit of a toss-up if it doesn't come off.

Co-ord vs Orks is very useful vs the horde type army IF you get the hits on them if not, look out you're about to lose a pile of units.
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HecklerMD
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:13 am 
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There are a few downsides to CF that I've noticed over time that I think balance the advantages:

Proximity:  CF of course does not require units to be so close as to be intermingled, but it still requires them to be close enough to have multiple units be vulnerable to template weapons: I doubt many AMHC commanders look forward to having 2 or even 3 units take a BM and hopefully make a save.  Generally lower armor saves, smaller unit sizes, and a greater firepower to unit ratio means the Tau face a greater hazzard when bunching up when facing template weapons, even @ 15cm.

Also, the intermingled thing goes the other way:  CF, no matter how many units participating, can only effect one enemy unit.  My regular Ork opponent gleefully packs his units in tight knowing he needs not worry about Tau template weapons and intermingleing.

Decisiveness:  When a Combined assault is over, one side wins and the other side loses, is broken, and (probablly) retreats.  In a CF, its not so set.  Poor rolling CAN mean that the target of a CF is only carrying 2-3 blastmarkers.

Oppsite of that, the Tau never "Lose" a CoFire. :)

Activations:  Tau formations tend to concentrate more firepower into a smaller package than onther armies.  Successful activation or not, a Tau CF drains more valuable resources than in other armies.  As stated above, a Coordinated Assault, with skill and/or luck, can target and possibly break multiple units, maintaining the activation balance somewhat. A CoFire cannot.

I had others, but they slipped my mind and I'm tired.  Short version, I think CoFire is needed to allow the Tau to deal with Enemy units that are less susceptable to BMs or are massive in numbers, or both.  Orks and 'Nids come to mind here.
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asaura
 Post subject: Coordinated fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:44 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 11 2006,06:59)
QUOTE
But as I said, I need to use my marines against asaura at some point. That should be poor target for coord as marines tend to have small formation sizes and larger amount of activations.

Hah! Coord fire = First, Drones Double to claim crossfire, place a BM. Second, Pathfinders kill the marines dead.
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