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Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Could we drop infiltrate and up its speed to something funky and giant ravener like?


Hereby tabling the proposal; Remove Infiltrate from the Trygon and give it Move 30?


So I'd downgrade the move to 20cm on hydra and dominatrix.

I'm not certain I'd do that... especially in the case of a dominatrix (Which is somewhat lacking in CC ability).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Aye you can throw it against a moderate sized formation... which it may beat (But likely will not, think about all that early-game firefight support) after which it is killed by the opponent.

No dice about it, a Dominatrix which pulls this move will die.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:08 pm 
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Two parts

Part one speed
I would say have the Heirophant and Trygon at speed 25
hierodule (both flavours), Hydraphant and Dominatrix as speed 20.

I am tempted to say speed 15 for the heirodules, but they wont get much combat (like carnifexs), also I would like speed 30 for Trygons but I'm sure it is too evil for a WE.

Part 2 Dominatrix
The dominatrix isn't that lacking, it is more than decent in combat, true it wont get there as often, but it will still be able to rip apart anything it gets into, baring imperatiors.

However I have noticed that it has no invunable save. ?Should our queen have one. ?She is the biggest synapse around so she should have some protection.

Also why don;t we arm her like a Hydraphant
so she will hvae
2x TK(1) CC claws
a big bio cannon
a big warp blast
smite?
and two extra weapons.

Since she is sitting on a Hydraphant then it is fitting that she can utlise the hyrdaphants biomorphs

EDIT:  Also remember that a dominatrix is a synpase and can be surrounded by a hord of brood creatures.  True they wont help her if she is being shot (unless they are bio WEs), but can help in an assault.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:42 pm 
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Ragnarok: Since GW will not be making a Dominatrix with extra weapon mandibles, we're limited to what's on the model.


The dominatrix model is very different to the Hydraphant model...


I wouldn't be adverse to giving her an invulnerable save though, it's nicely in-theme with her psychic powers.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:19 pm 
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You're not limited to what's on the model. You're limiting yourself by it. It's just as easy to go 'She has ' as to play with what's ACTUALLY on the model. I do it a lot with my AMTL army (Since I have no Volcano Cannon or Melta-Cannon armed Reavers, but field such things on a semi-regular basis). Just so long as you remember what they're supposed to be armed with you're fine. Or convert the mini into something new. Rules should not be written to fill the visual style of a mini, minis should be created to fill theh visual style of the rules.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:25 pm 
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Rules should not be written to fill the visual style of a mini, minis should be created to fill theh visual style of the rules.


Normally that may be true, but we're writing the Tyranid army list to match with models that already exist (Or those that are confirmed to exist and will be released, ie; the FW bio-titans), not writing a list that sculpters will go out and create to our specifications.


The Dominatrix model will be released with a bio-cannon on her back, and big damn claws on her forelimbs, and we know she should have good psychic powers.


For us to write rules that give her entirely different weapons is illogical.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:34 pm 
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The problem with that train of thought is that we should drop her DC to about 3.  She isn't a massive creature.

The background for her is that she is fused with a hydraphant, which is why I have advocated on several occassions dropping the dominatrix model and selling the throne with the hydraphant model.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:44 pm 
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Well then the armylist's background doesn't tally with the model either, so perhaps it needs changing, rather than removing a model from the retail range and requiring the prospective player to undertake a conversion if they want to use a Dominatrix.


DC-8 I can see being explained away as due to her warp-shielding, as size isn't everything.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:53 pm 
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See, I'm all for making the stats on the Heirodule match the models, becaues it also lines up with other things (like fluff). And I'd be relatively OK with changing the Dominatrix on that reasoning (or because of balance concerns) as well. I just don't like the idea of letting the existing models determine what the stats should be on them. Every single Titan is smaller then it should be. Many other items aren't built to scale or aren't built to the weapons they currently carry. But that's OK, visual style and actual rules are different (And should be).
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:52 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 20 2006,23:53)
QUOTE
See, I'm all for making the stats on the Heirodule match the models, becaues it also lines up with other things (like fluff). And I'd be relatively OK with changing the Dominatrix on that reasoning (or because of balance concerns) as well. I just don't like the idea of letting the existing models determine what the stats should be on them. Every single Titan is smaller then it should be. Many other items aren't built to scale or aren't built to the weapons they currently carry. But that's OK, visual style and actual rules are different (And should be).

The problem comes when you realise that the visual look of the Dominatrix model is worlds away from the Hydraphant model.

We must design stats to fit the models, not the other way around.

Noone's going to sculpt our ideas, no matter how cool they are.


So basically, a Hydraphant is not a neutered Dominatrix, it's an entirely seperate creature.

Which is cool. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:05 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 06 2006,15:22)
QUOTE
Also I'm thinking that ripper tentacles as d3+2 EA is too good. Better would be +d3EA is fairer, but perhaps it should be just +2 (or +3) to remove extra dice rolling.

Random numbers of attacks help make army selection more interesting, where the player decides whether or not he wants to gamble that he'll get into a good anti-infantry spot and roll high, or just go for that one TK attack and scuttle up to a Titan.

It's all part of the flavour, in my opinion, and the 40k Tyranid rules are full of these random ammount of attacks.

ie; A Malanthrope has D6+1 attacks, talk about random!


This would allow hierophant to attack 6 + 2TK(1) + 1TK(d3) + d3 attacks. Which is quite much for 250 points (up to 12 at 3+ ... resolving to 8 hits). Actually I'd remove one of the TK(1) as well, as too many attacks are given to these. Hormagaunts at the same price is 16 hormagaunts ... resolving to 8 hits. So with these downgrades it hits less than the equal points of hormagaunts (well 10 points less on hormies), but harder as 2 TK hits and with much greater durability than 10 hormagaunts.


I'd be wary of studying too closely the Tyranid WE's with Infantry in a direct statistical comparison; Bio-Titans are the enemy's priority target, and often die without reaching favourable CC opportunities, a 'clean' statistical analysis will not take this into account, and will thus always result in undereffective Bio-Titans.

As such, the Bio-Titans need to be slightly overpowered in their CC offensive capabilities, as they lack the critical advantages of Infantry, such as strength in numbers, being able to largely disregard enemy TK fire, and being able to claim cover saves, amongst several others, while also lacking the advantages of other types of Titan, like Shields/Fields, and largely less damaging critical hit results.



All that being said, I have yet to playtest the 2xTK claws varient of the Hierophant, maybe it really is nukage on legs, I'll have to check it out under battlefield conditions. :)




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