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Armour change to Crisis?
Dobbsy
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:08 am 
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Well, like I mentioned in my Broadsides thread, I think Crisis are over-armoured. I know people may be adverse to this but for balance of play, we should give them 4+RA like terminators and the very minimum is 4+ armour. My reasoning, as I stated is that:

a/ no other unit type has 3+ armour other than the Avatar and that's a representation of a god!

b/ Tau Jetpacks already represent the flitting ability of Crisis to some degree so the 3+ armour shouldn't be required.

c/ I really think Crisis suits should be brought into line with all other units for fairness.

How would we feel about this?
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:44 am 
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Crisis suits (without Shield Drones) are just as tough and well-armored as Marines.  Three Crisis suits have more wounds than 5 Marines, and with 2 Shield Drones added to the mix (what I usually include with a formation of 3 Crisis suits) they have 8 wounds to the Marine's 5.  I'd prefer to give them 4+ armor, and the Broadsides 4+RA (assuming Broadsides are Infantry).  I suppose the question really boils down to how many drones are we assuming on a stand?  Crisis suits with more than 2 Shield Drones per stand should be 4+RA.

If CS insists on leaving the Broadsides as LVs, then the Crisis suits can go to 4+RA, with a single Broadside having 4+ armor.  It's easier to kill 2 Drones and 1 Suit than it is to kill 2-6 Drones and 3 suits, after all.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:27 am 
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Carnifexi have 3+ armour saves, as a representation both of their number of wounds and decent armour save in 40k.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:17 am 
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Uhm, isn't a 4+ RA better than a 3+ save?  I mean, the 4+RA will save 75% of the time and the 3+ will save 67% of the time.

Giving them 4+RA also gives them a save against MW which they don't have now.

If you think they are over-armored, you are really moving in the wrong direction here.  Maybe I missed something? ???

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:20 am 
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Moscovian is technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:54 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 31 2006,09:27)
QUOTE
Carnifexi have 3+ armour saves, as a representation both of their number of wounds and decent armour save in 40k.

A Carnifex is also an armoured vehicle.

The only other infantry units with 3+ saves are Ogryn (and Big Mutants) and, in 40k, that's 15 Wounds, Toughness 4, 5+ Save.

Instead of 3 XV8s and 2 Drones on a stand, I think we should look at the Crisis Team unit as 2 XV8s and 2 Drones... certainly lets one stretch their models further!

By the infantry basing recommendations, one could do it with one VX8 and 2 Drones and still be "legal"... then you could really stretch your models.

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Honda
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:59 pm 
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However, the point that is not being brought into the equation is that fact that Crisis don't just stand around and let people shoot at them. They generally hide behind terrain, pop out, shoot, then pop back.

So in the above example, I could make the case that the armor isn't strong enough because it is something less than the save for a forest, skyscraper, or hill.  :p

Seriously, I think their saves are just fine.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:22 pm 
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Crisis,


3+ armor save (termy is better with a 2+)

T4 (like termy)
Can Deep Strike (Like a termy, though termy's get teleport in E:A only)

Crisis can move and jump over terrain like jetback (better than Termy)

2 Wounds (better than termy)

Get evade before being shot at (way better than termy)

May have 4+ invulnerable save (better than termy)

May have shield drones with 3+ save and 4+ invulnerable (better than termy

+ + +

Dobbsy 4+ RA is better than a 3+ anyway statistically and in game for more than one reason.

+ + +

We've debated before, 3+ is the balanced resolve.

Cheers,

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:37 pm 
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Ok I'll defer. I just hate getting comments in game like

"3+?!! Not even termies get that, that's a bit wrong."

It's makes me feel we don't have it right.

But like I said I'll defer. No worries
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:05 am 
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Tell your opponent 'at least you get to shoot at them in Epic'.  If he's ever played a Crisis horde in 40k with dense terrain, he'll be much happier playing against Tau in Epic.

If he's never played the Horde in dense terrain, I'll email you my 1500 point Crisis horde list, and you can bludgeon him with it once.  Just use terrain pieces that are less than 6" thick for the 40k game (so that you can jump over them).  He'll come around.

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Honda
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:22 pm 
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If he's never played the Horde in dense terrain, I'll email you my 1500 point Crisis horde list, and you can bludgeon him with it once.  Just use terrain pieces that are less than 6" thick for the 40k game (so that you can jump over them).  He'll come around.


Agree quite strongly with this statement. One of the only ways to combat this type of army is something that can move faster and isolate bunches of crisis, because if you try to do a straight advance across the board, they'll cut you to pieces.

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T0nkaTruckDriver
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:59 pm 
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(Dobbsy @ Aug. 31 2006,18:37)
QUOTE
Ok I'll defer. I just hate getting comments in game like

"3+?!! Not even termies get that, that's a bit wrong."


As Moscovian said above, 4+ Reinforced armor is better than 3+ armor. Not only because 4+ Reinforced will stop 75% of hits while 3+ only stops 67%, but when hit with a MacroWeapon, the 4+ Reinforced still stops 50% of hits while the 3+ gets no save at all.
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Tactica
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:34 pm 
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Exactly.

Your opponent just doesn't realize how much better a save the Termy's actually have in E:A.

Cheers,

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sampy
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:20 pm 
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But there is a good reason for Tau?s better armor save in E:A...right?

I think that the better armor save in epic is trying to say that in large scale and in longer distance, Tau have better toys to play. And in smaller scale and close distance, naturally better physical strenght and  durability of humans are playing bigger role. Opinions?
:)

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Armour change to Crisis?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:09 am 
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Against normal shooting, Termies actually have a better save (4+ with a re-roll stops 75% of damage versus a 3+'s 67%).  Against MW, Termies still get a 4+ save.  The only time that Crisis suits have a better save is under Lance fire.

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