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Range on Seeker Missiles

 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:27 pm 
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HK missiles are also one-shot. The seekers currently are not. I'd be fine with all seekers becoming 4+ to-hit 150cm range one-shot weapons (Meaning they'd hit on 2s when sustaining with marker lights). Maybe even 3+. But that would be extremely powerful. I've heard people voice complaints about the HK missiles on Vultures as well as being too good since they have such long range.

The question is: Is it worth the hassel of upping their range and changing the costs of the list for it, and how do you balance the rest of their abilities against this? If seekers become 150cm range, what do you do to keep it balanced? Just upping points costs seems wrong, since you'd have to up costs across the board and their survivability won't go up appreciably for the most part (Well you'll see more 'camping' going on. Sitting around all game with long-range support and letting just a handful of units run around getting objectives). My point is just because the canon says they should be longer range doesn't mean they have to be to capture the feel of the army or the game play you want it to have. Fluff should be dictated by game-play not the other way around. Otherwise marines should all have 4+ RA, MWs and a move of 25cm. And I don't think ANYONE wants to see that happen, do they?


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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:45 pm 
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Right,

If we are letting fluff constrain us, then we should bring to light movie marines first and foremost. The entire army of marines should be next to impossible to kill.

Then, we'd of course ahve to Quadrouple the size of the bug / orc / IG hordes to give it the full on 'horde' feelings.

Tau & IG would get some rediculous E:A ranges.

Bugs would gain several units that litterally bore through the ground and enter combat before youc an do anything about it.

Orks would deploy from giant ork rock space craft that were litterally impossible to kill.

Oh... and a single plattoon of IG (Gaunts Ghost anyone?) should be able to take on an entire hive city of chaos - and win.

:/

+ + +

Or, we can realize this is a game first based upon a franchise of established philosophies, it adheres to fluff as best it can, but it adheres to in game philosophies from core design more than directly to fluff, and it is designed to be balanced and enjoyable on both sides.

+ + +

At this point, if Seekers are not causing a PROBLEM in GAME, then they should be left as is.

If they are causing a problem, please present the batrep and case in the usual manner, otherwise, we tread closer and closer to destroying something that's actually working.

+ + +

Final thought, we've tride guided at +1 across the board before in test locally and it makes the list too strong. So that's out IMHO.

If there is playtest evidence that a seeker missile is too short of range by comparison to the 2+ 120cm range SINGLE SHOT missile of the Imperium, then I think we could explore a 100cm range instead - but change nothing else.

That in itself might be too strong. I don't know.

What I don't want to do is increase the cost of the units to get more range. Many units are already pushing the evelope of value for cost.

The list is almost up to winning 50% of games. Seems to be around the 40% locally now of the games I've played with them. I don't want something like this to push it to winning 60%+ of games locally as that enters the "eldar" range.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 pm 
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I would agree with Tac on this. Fiddling with this one "little" detail is enough to throw the whole list out of balance and I'm struggling to understand where the need is.

Would I love greater ranges on Seekers? You bet. Do I think it is the right thing to do at this point? No I do not.

I'm actually of the opinion that the list is so close to being balanced, that I really struggle to see any changes needed.

I know in some areas (what a FW cadre is armed with) I am in the minority, but tweaking with seekers now has huge ramifications to the entire list.

I strongly recommend that we do not follow this path.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:41 pm 
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Yet I feel I must bring up the point that I obviously share with the OP; We are supposed to be writing rules for a pre-existing background within a pre-existing structure.

It is imperical that Seeker missiles have longer range (When using forwards-deployed markerlights) than Imperial Hunter-Killer missiles.

Yet in Epic, the ranges are reversed.


It's not a case as to whether players feel that a longer range for the missile would be cooler for their army, this is a clear contradiction with the established background.

So IMHO if the list is to remain consistant with the cannon, the range needs to be increased, and the stats & if nessesary points costs rebalanced to compensate.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:33 pm 
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Lion in the stars: Could you explain a littlebit that what makes that Alaitoc Craftworld Eldar list so unbalanced? And what that  "11 rolls on the Ranger Disruption table makes it very hard to make a battle plan" means? Sorry my stupidity, I?m a little new in EA...  :D


Could that seeker missile range work in this way:

Seekers can use merkerlight ONLY when sustaining (this because the platform that takes sustained fire option, stops to compute that information what comes from markerlights), and when sustaining, seekers are fired double range(150cm) and indirectly. Any other ways, seekers would stay as they are now.  Any comments?

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:09 pm 
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Sorry about that sampy, that's a 40k reference.  Alaitoc Eldar Ranger armies have an army special rule that can do anything from allowing the Eldar player to take shots at your squads to forcing parts of your army to start in reserve, with the 'least serious' impact being starting pinned, where you can't move or shoot.  It's almost impossible to plan for what that army will do to your opposing force, because the effects are rolled randomly on a table after your army is deployed.  It's not that the list is really unbalanced, as the Rangers and Pathfinders are very fragile units, but it's very challenging to face, and not fun in the slightest.
****************
That proposal's actually the reverse of how Markerlights and Seeker Missiles work in 40k now, sampy.  The only LoS requirement in 40k is from the ML to the target.  Also, Seeker Missiles can fire even when the vehicle it's carried by cannot (as long as the vehicle hasn't been destroyed).

Maybe adding Ignore Cover to the Markerlight rules would be an adequate representation...

****************
I'm OK with a 90 or 105cm range (remember, 15cm range brackets), just enough to make the missiles have a slightly different use than as backups to the Railguns.  Actually, I think 90cm would be enough of a range increase to differentiate Guided Missiles from Railguns.

So, it'd look like:
Seeker Missiles: 90cm AT6+ Guided Missile
Submunition Missiles: 90cm 2x AP5+ Guided Missile
Tracer Missile:  90cm MW6+ Guided Missile

Note that this does not apply to any missiles carried by Aircraft.  Aircraft don't need the longer range.

I have a fluff reason for shortening aircraft weapons:  Due to the speed at which the aircraft is moving, by the time any weapons actually hit the target, the aircraft will be significantly closer to the target than a ground vehicle would.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:14 pm 
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Yet I feel I must bring up the point that I obviously share with the OP; We are supposed to be writing rules for a pre-existing background within a pre-existing structure.

It is imperical that Seeker missiles have longer range (When using forwards-deployed markerlights) than Imperial Hunter-Killer missiles.

Yet in Epic, the ranges are reversed.


It's not a case as to whether players feel that a longer range for the missile would be cooler for their army, this is a clear contradiction with the established background.

So IMHO if the list is to remain consistant with the cannon, the range needs to be increased, and the stats & if nessesary points costs rebalanced to compensate.


@E&C

I think your point is valid right up until it introduces an imbalance.

That is why every army has step outs from the existing framework, because at the end of the day, we are attempting to produce lists that are balanced against eachother.

What you see now, is a result of many months of testing, which I know you are aware of, but the point I am trying to make is that we "arrived" at this decision, it wasn't something that just popped up.

Again, I am pushing for extreme caution as changing something as pervasive as seeker missiles introduces huge risk to the current list.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:46 pm 
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I think your point is valid right up until it introduces an imbalance.


I'm quite aware that changing the range of guided missiles would be a significant step, and I know that only having been posting here for 4 months I am of course a total noob. :D

I'm just offering my thoughts with a copy of IA:3 on my knee.

Several proposals have been tabled above as to how to compensate for the power imbalance the change would represent... I don't know enough about the Tau list to suggest changes myself. All I can say as an avowed fluff nut is that the stats as-is are in direct contradiction with the background.

Stretching of the background I can come around to as long as it can justifiably fit (I'm now slightly on the side of AA on Ionheads, rather than against it, for example, after having been persuaded by the 40k rules examples given in the thread), but the only justifications I'm seeing here are that the comparative downgrade to the range of guided missiles balances the list with the current points cost & rules.

If all that's holding back an increase to the Seeker's range is the points cost & special rules, then IMHO they are what should give in, rather than taking away guided missiles clear status in the background as the Tau's longest ranged ground-support weapon.





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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:47 pm 
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I agree, it does concern me that any change will be a HUGE change to the balance of the army.

That's why I backed off from the 120cm range.  I believe 90cm would be just enough to differentiate the seeker missiles from Railguns, allowing the ambushes we read about in IA3 to actually work.  Isn't the Tau list really close to balanced (if perhaps a little underperforming at present)?

Can we at least try a shift to 90cm on Seeker Missiles, Submunition Missiles, and Tracer Missiles?

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:06 pm 
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@Lion/E&C,

It isn't that I'm not willing to test. I am. I like the idea of a "slight" increase, relatively speaking as it keeps formations just a little farther back from retribution.

However, these are the consequences that must be investigated:

1. Does the Piranha become too cheap at the new range?

2. Are the aggregated additional shots from all the units bearing seekers too much? This is a very difficult scenarion to test because it is completely dependant on the number of formations with seekers and it would be extremely easy to get bad feedback. This would include testing with aircraft (all of them) because they carry seekers as well.

3. If it is determined that the range is desired, but that it is a little strong, then we have to look at a cost increase. Given that the Tau are bit behind the activation curve as it is now, reducing the number of formations due to this cost increase could break the fragile balance that we have at this moment.

4. Because the seeker is so pervasive to the list, this isn't a decision that can be settled with a 10 game playtest. This change will require multiple tens of games to arrive at a safe decision point. Do we (and I include the list champion) want to undertake that effort at this point? There are a number of opinions (some shared by the ERC) that the current list is at the "sweet" spot.

Personally, I'm more interested to see an extensive testing period (minimum 6 months) with what we have.

So again, I'm not against the change per se, all though it may be coming off that way, but this "little" change is huge as far as its impact to the list.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:52 pm 
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I share Honda's caution.

I also completely understand Lion and E&C's concern with E:A rules vs. the background.

Understand that we've arrived where we are as an excepted abstraction from fluff.

Also, realize that the E:A tau is a list with numerous abstractions because in order to align with how they perform in fluff and core design 100%, they would simply become way too powerful in E:A.

Examples:
Tau would be the end all in a FF if we truely gave them their stats they should have by comp to other imperial armies. The reality is that this makes us extremely good in what E:A refers to as engage actions as long as we were not in b-t-b with the enemy.

Backing up a bit, one starts to wonder - why is tau so good at E:A firfights (engage) when they are supposed to be bad at combat?

You either have to argue that point with the nay-sayers, or you artificially imbalance them to be worse at FF than they should be. Afterall, having Tau issue engage orders constantly to get into FF and wreck the enemy doesn't seem all that Tau-ish either to some players... however, if there were two orders FF engage and CC engage - then the Tau would seem right to issue FF engage orders. Alas, that is not this game.

So, we backed off as Tau issing engage orders constantly and out gunning other lists was getting outrageous back in the day.

Artificial FF and low CC scores mean you have to offset that balance in regular shooting.

+ + +

crisis, drones and stealth's don't use move shoot move and stay hidden in cover. Instead, they have good initiative and good armor.

+ + +

Stealths and SGDT have stealth field generators, they would not be able to be seen outside of 30cm range. Instead, they have good armor.

+ + +

Stealths, crisis, and gun drones all Deep strike in 40K and in fluff from high altitude air craft. In E:A, on the stelaths teleport due to their espionage and sneek attack fluff.

+ + +

broadsides are infantry in fluff and in core design just like crisis, they are the same size as terminators, are more durable, and are no bigger than Crisis suits. Nay sayers have CS offering a sympathetic ear and to date, they are still Light Vehicles.

+ + +

In fluff and core design, you have multiple shas'os in a single force org or formation. In E:A - we get one per the entire army of formations.

+ + +

In fluff, both the Tiger and the AX-1-0 are fighter bombers. In E:A, they are both currently bombers, but we are moving the Ion-Tiger to a FB to further differentiate it from the AX-1-0 and make it more worth its points. The AX-1-0 remains a bomber to keep it balanced.

+ + +

The Manta would have more hits and be a flier WE if we made it align with fluff. It would enter and leave the table in blinding speed deploying troops and providing titan class fire support throughout the battle. That would also make it only engagable by AA weapons. It would become impossible to kill in the course of a 3 to 4-turn game. So it moves 20 and is a support craft that can always be seen.

+ + +

Markerlights are weapons in fluff and in core design. They are fired to hit and they give benefits chosen by the tau player to other units yielding a force multiplier that no other army can benefit from. As a result, we can make an entire unit of guns +1 to hit per individual marker shot on the target unit, not to mention, we can remove the cover saves, give negatives to make them run and illuminate the target unit in night fight conditions... as well, we can launch seekers at 2+ to hit or increase the hit probability for our vehicles. Mind you - the number 1 use is to make crisis, stealth, broadside, SGDT, vehicles and FW shots hit better. Seekers are actually the least used of the Markerlight in core design game, and in fluff the markers deliver terrible damage from guided shots - both missile and non-missile.

Howver - in E:A, we simply only affect guided munitions, and the best they get is +1 no matter how many markers are illuminating the target. ML are also not weapons in E:A.

+ + +

Sentry Turrets in core design are individual units that mark, detur and suprise the enemy only when activated. In E:A, they are a unit of 6 that teleport and can be destroyed before they deliver any benefit.

+ + +

Seekers are not unlimited range in E:A like they are in fluff and core design

+ + +

I could go on, but I think I've made the point. You see... Tau are a veritable abstraction in E:A as it compares to both core design and fluff. This is from many months (years) of testing now. It stems from old Tau codex, Jervis initial influence, and JG/CS influence on how the list is to be developed.

Two fundamental design concepts more than anything else drive the rule abstraction we have today in E:A Tau

1) ML in E:A are artificially imbalanced negatively driving abstraction of the guided system and weapons that benefit from the ML.

2) FF are artificially imbalanced negatively driving the force shooting range/proficiency abstraction.

+ + +

To mess with either of these is to redesign the E:A Tau list in its entirty due to the severe effects it will have throughout the list.

I strongly caution messing with guided muntions range as you are tampering with both items 1 and 2 above in doing so.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:56 pm 
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That's why I've backed off a big change in range.  I'm keenly aware that changing the range of Guided Missiles will have repercussions across the list, and I'm not sure it will be balanced, even with just a change to 90cm.  That's why I'm asking for people to test it.  If it can be made to work well, while reflecting the fluff, that's outstanding.  If it's too unbalancing a change, at least we tried to make the army works in-game reflect how it works in the fluff.

To address one point, all the aircraft weapons would be unaffected by this proposed change.  I'm specifically asking to increase the range of Seeker, Tracer, and Submunition missiles, and those missiles only, to 90cm.  Yes, the Support Craft would get a slight range increase (Scorpfish and Moray would be able to hit targets @ 90cm, and the Manta would be able to hit targets harder @ 90cm), but not the aircraft (Barracuda, Tiger Shark, and AX10), which are armed with Aircraft Seeker missiles, Heavy Interceptor Missiles, and Aircraft Tracer Missiles.  None of which show up on anything except aircraft.

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:05 pm 
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As a random thought, what if just SkyRays were given 'advanced' Seeker missiles, with a considerably longer range (120cm).

I understand that Skyrays are regarded as somewhat sub-par, and perhaps this would be a way to compensate, representing the Skyray as the Tau's premiere missile control tank, able to pull off small Seeker ambushes as was seen on Taros, without jepardizing the balance of the whole list?

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:23 pm 
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As a random thought, what if just SkyRays were given 'advanced' Seeker missiles, with a considerably longer range (120cm).

I understand that Skyrays are regarded as somewhat sub-par, and perhaps this would be a way to compensate, representing the Skyray as the Tau's premiere missile control tank, able to pull off small Seeker ambushes as was seen on Taros, without jepardizing the balance of the whole list?


This is actually a very interesting idea. Not only is it limited to a single unit type (i.e. manageable), but it might also help with making the Skyray a little more interesting choice.

Now with an extended Skyray seeker, would we be justified in creating a Skyray contingent and dropping the AA Ion cannon?

I don't think you'd want to have these attached to your AMHC's anymore as you'd be shutting out your Hammerheads, but it certainly would cause me to look at them a little more seriously.

Others thoughts?

I don't know if this is a great idea yet or not, but it is one of the things I love about the Tau forum is the potential for nuggets to pop out of nowhere (e.g. Scorpionfish VML).

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 Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:30 pm 
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Lion & E&C,

Both ideas have some merit.

I would be more apt to trying a small range increase on the ground based missiles to work at solving the fluff problem while also addressing another problem that I expected to be brought up here but hasn't yet... that is, the 90cm range barrier that the Tau list struggles with. Our support craft even have trouble as they have to get 60/75 cm in range to have any effect. You don't always want to get that close.

Missiles in actuality should (as has been pointed out numerous times) solve our problem of indirect fire and volcano cannons as we counter with seekers fired from even further away and out of LOS by markerlit units.

I've longed for the Tau list to be able to close the gap of the indirect barrages by way of seekers and the alike if the markers could get into range, but having to be inside of 75cm has its own problems far too often in play to really use them this way.

So, like Lion - I still wonder if an extra 15cm is going to imbalance... however, I'm willing to give that a try.

reason:
1) solves issue of play style that should be viable I note above

2) works to differentiate the guided munitions as truly the longest range weaponry the tau have at their grasp so aligns with fluff

3) may be enough of a boost to the Tau to bring that 40% range up to the 50% range when you consider the other changes taking place:

- All GROUND based guided munitions going from 75cm to 90cm (note, could not affect AA or Aircraft mounted weaponry)
- ion losing AA (hopefully not getting worse in stats)
- DF gain SMS & lose burst cannon (possible point adjust)
- BS going to LV and single shot (possible point adjust)
- FW losing disrupt shot for x2 30cm shots
- PF change to add sniper to gun, not unit special rule
- Tiger going to FighterBomber from Bomber only
- MLST going to individual units instead of formation


Yes, I could test that.

+ + +

I'd steer clear of giving a non-fluff boost to the skyray's seeker as;

1) its replacing one non-fluff representation of all guided munitions with another version of a specialized guided munition at a longer range than the rest - which may be worse of a franchise history violation than 75cm guided munitions

2) complicates the list with yet another weapon type which I hope is unnecessary

3) Adds even longer range to AA umbrella which cannot happen for reasons already discussed.

Cheers,

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