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Broadsides

 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:34 am 
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All good conversation...but I think that the main issue here, and the main problem of broadsides is that you can use anyweapon you want to kill them.

So, would be nice if they could change to infantry.

Armoured vehicle with 4+ reinforced would be ok too.... :D

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:50 am 
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Nah, they aren't as tough as a Land Raider





They're tougher!

While I won't deny that both Crisis and Broadsides are big (IA3 has Crisis @ 2.5 tons, Broadside @ 3.8tons), they're just over 9 feet tall (2.8m in IA3).  Roughly the same height as a Marine in Termie Armor.  Why would a Termie be an LV?  He's the same size as a Crisis suit!  Just as tough to kill as a unit of Crisis suits, too.

Also, unless I've really missed something, having Broadsides as LV prevents me from deploying them in buildings, the place they are most effective.

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:45 am 
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(Hena @ Aug. 23 2006,09:35)
QUOTE
The models in 40k are definitely larger than termie, at least the crisis suit is (and broadside should be even bigger). So in that sense LV is better as the suit is much more visible. About the buildings, I can see a a problem of fidding a suit that large into a regular building (how the heck does it go through doors for example).

That's true - if the 40K scale is accepted - and remember that a Tau pilot has to fit inside the body of the suit - the Tau battlesuits are larger than Killa Kans, and over 1 1/2 times the height of a Termie. In fact - around as tall as a Termie with a huge back banner - which would not pass a doorway either  :p

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:12 am 
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Remember 40k Marines are 15-20% underscaled compared to the rest of the range.

A Terminator-suited Marine could well be as large as a Broadside Suit.





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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:46 am 
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Just compare a Marine with a Guardsman.


A Marine is supposed to be an 8 foot tall superman, yet he stands the same height as a Guardsman.


At some point in 40k's early history they decided to make Marines the same height as other humans, and now it's too late to correct the mistake.

So yeah, Marines are about 20% undersized in 40k.

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:57 am 
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Oh dear...what if the marines are not THE genetically engineered ultimate fighting machines, they are just ordinary troopers with big ego and lot of fancy powerarmors... :D  

ok,

Is this really an issue about what size those miniatures are, or issue about maybe changing those broadsides more fair and usable form what comes in tabletop gaming...? :)  

They won?t come overpowered even if they were infantry.

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:36 am 
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"Over 7' tall" or "8 feet tall" are the normal height descriptions for Marines. 2 Meters isn't even 7 feet, far too short for our gods of war. :)

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:55 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 23 2006,10:36)
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"Over 7' tall" or "8 feet tall" are the normal height descriptions for Marines. 2 Meters isn't even 7 feet, far too short for our gods of war. :)

They aren't gods of war, they are angles of death.

Gods of war stand about 80 meters tall and are normally known as titans  :D

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:26 am 
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Ah, many apologies ragnarok :D

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:43 pm 
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Just to add another element to this debate: At present EVERY light vehicle except these in Epic is a single model alone on a base (Vypers, Warbuggies/Wartrakks, Land Speeders, Sentinels, Warwalkers, etc). The reason for this being that as a 'single model' the unit can easily be killed by a single hit with a lascannon. Infantry will simply take a single casualty and continue on. Even bikes are unlikely to care very much about losing individuals, unless you take out lots of them they'll just keep coming.

So, if you DO decide to keep them as LVs, I recommend the following for stats:

Broadside
LV, 20cm, 3+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Twin-linked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Notes: None.

Fielded in formations of 6s, would be completely appropriate. That would represent two 'Squads' of Broadsides, and gives them fire-power comperable with their place in the heirarchy of the Tau. They're easier to kill (3+ vs 4+ RA) due to smaller number of wounds, but still quite tough. Yes, you can off them with lots of things, but they'll also put out horrendous fire-power with 6x AT 2+ shots and 6x AP 5+ Ignore Cover shots for a formation. Reinforce them with an extra 3 (one more stand) and you've got 9x AT 2+/AP5+. The 3+ save represents that each model has 1-2 shield drones following it around (Yes you can put shield drones on the ENTIRE squad if you want to). Allowing them to absorb more fire-power then normal. But huge weapons which just wipe out mass troops, like plasma blast guns, will simply tear them up effortlessly. I think this captures the 'style' people are looking for for the LV side of things. Personally, I'm kindof indifferent. I think you could argue either way. Model-wise they're as big as a Dreadnought... But then Space Marine Bikes are ALSO nearly that big, as are Eldar Jetbikes, but no one complains that those units should  be LVs, do they?


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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:48 pm 
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(sampy @ Aug. 23 2006,07:08)
QUOTE
But Chroma:

AMHC(6) = 375pts , Broasides(6) = 450pts...right? :)

*DOH*  That's what I get for late night addition... *laugh*

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 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:07 pm 
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(to be honest, I've had more Broadsides gunned down by bolters and lasguns than by AT weapons like lascannons, meltas, or missiles)  Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons are the best way to kill Crisis or Broadsides in 40k (well, plasma/starcannon, and big 'Nids with Devourers, but...).  From my experience in 40k, based on what causes the fastest kills, that makes Broadsides 'Infantry' in Epic.



And I would agree with you Lion. However, I think the "real" best way to take them out is with a powerfist.

From a tactical exercise perspective, engaging them in HtH is still the best way because if you don't kill them outright, then they aren't able to shoot the next turn because they are locked in combat.

Tactica and I have gone on quite a bit on this one, but that's for a 40K forum.

Anyway, I think that there is a general acceptance that BS need something.

Let me pose this question, if they did switch back to INF is that all you'd need to start using them?

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