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Range on Seeker Missiles

Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:25 pm

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This cam to me while thinking about the RST issue.

In 40k, Seeker Missiles have an 'unlimited range'. ?So do Imperial Hunter-Killer missiles (the Vehicle Upgrade kind, not the Marine SPSAM weapon) and Hellstrike missiles. ?Hellstrikes have a 120cm range in E:A, while Seekers 'only' have a 75cm range. ?I came into the Epic tau discussions somewhere around v3, so I probably missed part of the discussion, but why is there this disjoint between an Imperial weapon and a Tau weapon, ostensibly with an identical purpose? ?

You see, right now it's not really possible to pull off an RST-enabled ambush the way that they're described in IA3, since as soon as the Tau forces are within range of an Imperial armored formation (like two Mech Inf companies and a LRuss Company), the Russes are also within range of the Tau. ?This does not agree with the description of the ambushes.

(Imperial Armour 3: ?The Taros Campaign @ page 123)

QUOTE

For the first day, his men saw little of the enemy.

On the second day, that changed. ?His scouts and vanguard platoons came under surprise attack from well-hidden Tau forces. ?For the first time, Imperial Guardsmen encountered distinctive tall, thin observation towers, which seemed to contain sensor equipment. ?Following the sightings, several Chimeras were destroyed by Seeker Missile strikes, seemingly launched out of nowhere. ?Each time the Tau attacked, it caused the threatened units to halt, disembark troops and begin to hunt down the foe.

(Imperial Armour 3: ?The Taros Campaign @ page 167)

QUOTE

On Taros, Skyrays were a common addition to the mobile armoured Hunter Cadres operating in the desert, and proved a highly effective weapon in both sir defense and against ground targets. ?Deployed behind a skirmish screen of pathfinders their multiple Seeker Missiles would often be the opening volley of an engagement, directed by the Pathfinder's Markerlights onto the Imperial Guard columns, utilising the Seeker Missile's very long range to good effect.

Could one of the folks that's been around for longer than I have explain why decision was made to reduce the Seeker Missile's range compared to the Hellstrike?

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:14 am

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Not sure myself, but I would be confident that game balance would be a good place to look, Lion. I'm not sure "unlimited range" for seeker missiles will be fair across the Tau list. We'd have to at least look at downgrading the number of units with seeker missiles if we did anything like removing the limit on range.

Just my guess.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:28 am

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I didn't mean giving them unlimited range in Epic: ?Armageddon, I meant giving them a 120cm range (and not just seekers. ?All the Guided Missiles: Seeker, Tracer, and Submunition, except the aircraft-carried versions. 120cm on an aircraft is so disgusting it's not worth even thinking about.)

That would really shift how the Tau fight, though. ?ML-equipped formations would be significantly more dangerous, with the ability to 'call fire' from the other side of the board if there's LOS. ?It makes relatively open boards (like a desert) the Tau's favorite playground, though.

Seekers, Tracers, and Submunition missiles would become the primary offensive weapon of the Tau, IMO, with the relatively low to-hit numbers improving dramatically when Sustaining at Marked targets. ?With the longer range, it would be more feasible to stand still and sustain at a target (LRuss company taking a lot of AT4+ is not going to be happy) instead of staying on the move. ?I'm going to have to test this (although every unit carrying Guided Missiles is going to need a serious review, as I can see points changing, possibly dramatically, with this one change.) ?

The range of Seeker missiles was 75cm in the list that FW re-wrote for IA3. ?I remember it being 75cm in V3.2, but I don't think I was around for any earlier lists.

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Honda

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:29 pm

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Dobbsy hit it on the head. It was a "balancing" issue. At one point we did have seekers with almost unlimited range, including pulling seekers from offboard to support anyone with a ML.

I think what caused us to assign them to units and then make them more effective with ML's was concept that prior to that, people basically assumed that "flocks of Seekers" were just flying around waiting for someone to call them down and kill something. Conceptually, this just didn't sit well.

So pulling Real Life into the issue, we assumed that "something" had to carry the seekers (which is consistent with their fluff) and something had to target them (which is also consistent). From there it came down to balance.

As much as I would love to have a longer range on the seekers, at this point, I would hesitate to start monkeying around with this because it has such a significant impact on the entire list.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:49 pm

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Giving them 120cm range would effectively give them unlimited range.

Set up 15cm from edge. Opponent 15cm from the edge. Move of 35cm plus 120cm range = 185cm, which is the entire length of a 6 foot board (183cm). That is going the long ways, too.

The short ways it is REALLY unlimited. :cool:

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Tactica

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:21 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
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Lion,

To answer your question:

1) Imperial weapons are limited in number, have a higher potency (2+) and have a longer range [edit: in E:A that is].

2) Imperial hunter/hellstrikes are still debated today on their potency (though range is probably accurately reflected).

3) Tau rely upon Seekers as a way to fight, not just as supporting fire.

4) we (community) didn't want to limit the number of shots per vehicle and more importantly, to have to account for shots remaining per vehicle, just to increase the range of the shots.

5) Balance was a concern for increasing the range on so many guided weapons

6) Jervis guided the final decision on unlimited shots, but shorter range by comparison (from what I recall when JG was around anyway).

In short, it was a comprimise and concious decision. True unlimited range and true hit potency would also require true ML rolls to hit and ML unit suppression. It would also require true accounting of Seekers missiles per unit as each would be single shot.

Its a very large abstraction in order for the Guided Missiles and ML influences to fit within the E:A gaming system constraints.

Its not ideal, but is more balanced and less of a headache than any alternative that was or has since been presented.

Remember, when you start to tamper with the guided missiles, you also must consider tracer, seeker, etc... and you must also consider ML and the units carrying them which will have influence on the guided munitions in question. Its a delicate balancing act with a multitude of varibles and impacts.

Cheers,

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:06 pm

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I guess I'm OK with a conscious decision to reduce the range. I thought I'd ask, at least (and I do remember the flock of seekers discussions, so maybe I got here at the tail end of v2). I will admit to wanting a longer range on the Submunition missiles, but that has a lot to do with the models I'm making of them having wings, not fins. The longer range on Tracer missiles would be pretty nasty, too. I would like to point out that several new missiles IRL can circle and wait for someone to call them down (Tacit Rainbow antiradar missile, Tactical Tomahawk). At the time of that discussion, it wasn't possible for me to mention this information. Anyway, water under the bridge now.

I was just thinking that there might be a few questions about this from people that are just getting into E:A, so it may need to be mentioned in the Designer's Notes.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:10 pm

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Just to catch up with this topic... If Seekers are increased in range it has significant effect - not just on the list but the game in general.

With such a long range, guided missile which is so common in the list, the Tau force would start to become extremely static. Simply throw some Markerlight Sentry Towers and Patherfinders forwards, and keep everything back to hit at long range. Aside from turn out a more boring game, this would go against the general feel of the Tau, and the goals of Epic (as I see it) as a fluid and changing game.

In addition, the range does not reflect just how far these things can travel, but the relative accuracy at difference distances, and their general use in the forces.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:32 pm

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Unfortunately CyberShadow, the situation you describe there is exactly how the Tau army operated for 90% of the Taros campaign.

Leaving Sentry towers in their wake, always withdrawing, any battles inevitably being quick clashes before another withdrawal.

The general feel of the Tau, at least on Taros (Our only decent source for large-scale Tau warfare), was extreme long range tank/artillery combat, not WWII-style close-formation combat. The Tau are a modern combined forces army, to the Imperium's anacronistic one.

So as far as the feel of how the army operates on Epic's larger scale, the situation you describe sounds pretty accurate.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:17 am

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If we did increase the range of Guided Missiles, how do we make the Tau continue to be mobile? ?(It's not that the Tau were only fighting static battles on Taros, they were running fast hit&run raids as a delaying measure for most of the desert campaign. ?It wasn't until the end of the Imperial retreat that the Tau really engaged in a stand-up fight, and even then it wasn't a style of battle that the Imperium was particularly familiar with. ?Only the Marines were really able to stand against the fluid cut&thrust of the Tau attack on the spaceport, as the Marine's style of battle is very similar to that of the Tau. ?The difference is that Marines can stay in the thick of things and are more capable of fighting, and trained to fight, their way through a 'bog' in the battle, when Tau would disengage and review plans to attack again) ?All the fluff I've read for the Tau emphasizes their mobility. ?Tau maneuver and engage targets where the Tau are at their greatest advantage and their opponents are at their greatest disadvantage.

It really makes sense that Guided Missiles should be 120cm range or so, with the missiles being used as the longest ranged weapons, with the railguns and other weapons being used as the formations close. ?So either RSTs need to be built into the list differently (even more limited numbers) or removed entirely (not what I want). ?Alternatively, the per-unit cost of Tau units could be increased. ?Also, we could take a page from Dreampod 9's Earth Forces book, where a typical CEF battlegroup would face several battles in succession against individually lesser opponents, but whose combined combat ability was broadly comparable to that of the CEF battlegroup's. ?I don't know what this would do to a 'Tournament Scenario' game though. ?The other question is whether the Tau would be the force on the offensive or the one on the defensive.

Note: ?I do NOT want to increase the range of Hunter missiles. ?The 75cm range is fine for the AA attack is fine (and about prototypical for modern battlefield SAM units). ?120cm makes more sense for Submunition missiles (since the 40k model I've built has wings, not just fins), Seeker Missiles (for reasons already stated), and possibly Tracer Missiles (since a Tracer essentially has a much more powerful version of the Seeker warhead, but we haven't made/seen a model of a Tracer missile yet). ?I could actually go either way on Tracers, since it could be the same size as a Seeker with a bigger warhead (hence shorter range), but the Scorpfish description suggests that a Tracer is larger than either a Seeker or Submuntion missile by about 50%. ?I'd prefer to see all the guided missiles have the same range, though.

[Edit: fixed italics]

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:56 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 26 2006,16:32)

QUOTE

Unfortunately CyberShadow, the situation you describe there is exactly how the Tau army operated for 90% of the Taros campaign.

?I dont doubt that for a moment. However, the Taros book is a double edged sword. On the one hand, it is an invaluable guide, on the other it is not the Tau bible, and we should not be unnecessarily constrained by it. I think that it is important to remember that the Taros book is primarily aimed at 40K players, and that the concepts outlined always the best for the game of Epic.

It is quite possible and even likely that the Taros background describes the Tau force as a static attack one. It is even possible that the 40K lists do the same, since certain sections can be outside the scope of 40K.

However, the fact remains that Epic is primarily a game about movement (which is why a standard March move is the total range of a Marine heavy weapon!). If all weapons were in scale, then ranges would become crazy!

This is just one of those situations where a transcription of the single Tau source that we have would lead to a less interesting play experience. We need to be careful to keep to the background by making the Tau a long range force, without unbalancing the play of the game or other forces (how would Orks or Tyranids cope if me had extreme range, indirect fire missiles - even if they are described in IA3?).

In addition, any change to the range of these missiles would result in fairly wide-reaching changes to the dynamics of the force.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:35 pm

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on the other it is not the Tau bible,

All background info in there is authorised by the main design studio and can be considered 'cannon'.

I think that it is important to remember that the Taros book is primarily aimed at 40K players,

However it also contains quite a few Epic scenarios & an Epic army list for the Tau... the Taros book is aimed at describing a large war involving tens of thousands of infantry and many hundreds of tanks, with the scenarios being about the only small scale events in the whole book.

It is quite possible and even likely that the Taros background describes the Tau force as a static attack one.

Not at all. The Tau constantly outmanuever and outthink the Imperial Guard forces during the campaign. Tau tactics are fluid and rapid, and they only fight close engagements on their own terms.

The rest of the time, it's long range rail guns & over-the-horizon Seeker missiles, using pathfinder or sentry turret spotters.

Based on this information, on a purely background basis, Seeker missiles do not seem to have the correct range.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:11 am

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I've got to get some test games in to see what effect this would have.

Also, Guided Missiles require LOS from the attacker to the target in Epic, which is not the way the work in 40k either. I'd be willing to ignore that item for the better range.

IG Steel Legion Mechanized Infantry Company rolls up into Teleported RST ML bubble. Stingray formation with Pathfinder upgrade calls Co-fire on marked units, and 6x Stingrays + Skyray Sustain, with two Piranha formations also Sustaining at the Orks. 12x AP3+, plus 9x AT4+, and whatever AT4+ the Piranhas can throw down. There shouldn't be much left of the IG afterwards.

If we did this tweak, I'd want to increase the cost of most of the Guided Missile armed units in the game. I'm still a little concerned with this tweak as far as balance goes. It would really change the nature of the Tau army to give them this long-range weapon. Maybe if we also removed the 'dumbfire' option for Seekers and other guided missiles...

I'm afraid that this tweak would make the Tau as much fun to play against as a Ranger-heavy Alaitoc Craftworld Eldar list. 11 rolls on the Ranger Disruption table makes it very hard to make a battle plan. The entire army is very frustrating to play against. So much so that I refuse to play against Alaitoc Cheddar.

That much long-range fire could be very dangerous...barring a shift to AP6+/AT7+MW7+ base for an unmarked Target, with a +2 for Marked targets.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:26 am

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I would like to, at this point, point out one of my favorite little things in Battletech. One of the commentaries by the designers points out that an observent viewer will see the largest range of any weapon in that game is 30 hexes. That's only 900 meters since each hex is 30-meters from edge to edge in a 'fluff' sense. Dreadfully short range compared to modern weapons, and even compared to their own fluff, where in some weapons can fire at targets 2-3 KM away. But in order to make a weapon with that range it would have a maximum range of 60+ hexes, meaning there would be very little strategic maneuvering, as any time you had LoS to a target you'd have firing-range to it!

Fluff and stories should ALWAYS take a back seat to gameplay. No ifs, no ands, no buts. If something canonically would make an army too good? Don't do it that way. Design the game to be A: Fun to play and B: Balanced. Fluff and background and canon can be damned. The game should be entertaining first, and realistic second.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:41 am

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If something canonically would make an army too good?

Then you increase the points cost of aquiring seeker missiles (Maybe make formations having them an upgrade rather than always posessing them?).

Or you make it impossible to hit a BVR target unless it is markerlit (As it was on Taros).

It strikes me as quite odd that the Seeker missile has a significantly shorter range than the (inferior ranged) Hunter-Killer missile.

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