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Broadsides

Dobbsy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:29 am

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Looking at their stats they are hard hitters, but they are so fragile they last about 7 seconds on the battlefield due to being so expensive and number one target for opponent's artillery/airstrikes etc. Having to buy an Orca to make them useful isn't all that great.

I can't possibly take these guys because they cost so damn much for such little return. Does anyone else feel they aren't right?

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Chroma

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:10 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Dobbsy @ Aug. 22 2006,01:29)

QUOTE

I can't possibly take these guys because they cost so damn much for such little return. Does anyone else feel they aren't right?

Garrisoned into cover and set up on overwatch with some Gun Drones to protect them would be the way I'd deloy them.

Once Tau come back up on the local playtest schedule, I'll give them a spin!

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:24 am

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Yeah Chroma, that's a good one. They still look vulnerable to everything though - assault, AT fire, AP fire, artillery. Do they stick around long for you in that configuration?

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Chroma

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:27 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Dobbsy @ Aug. 22 2006,02:24)

QUOTE

Yeah Chroma, that's a good one. They still look vulnerable to everything though - assault, AT fire, AP fire, artillery. Do they stick around long for you in that configuration?

Well, like I said, I haven't had much Tau-play lately, but it's definitely a configuration I want to try out.

In my experience, people seem to expend a lot more munitions on Tau tank formations than Infantry/LV formations... though, overwatching Broadsides might change their minds. *laugh*

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:42 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

We really need to change Broadsides back to Infantry. They aren't any bigger than a Crisis suit, and they're far tougher to kill.

They really shouldn't be very mobile, but deployed like Chroma said, they should be better.

In 40k, I usually set my Broadsides up with good fields of fire (essentially garrisoning them on overwatch, although those rules do not exist in 40k).

Although, with the new Advanced Stabilization System Battlesuit Support System, they are a bit more mobile, and can still fire to good effect. (maybe 5cm faster in E:A) Also, any Broadside with the Stabilization system has the SMS, not the Plasma Rifle. I believe that I convinced JimmyGrill that Broadsides rarely carried the SMS before the StabSys was available (I know I argued that way), and I think that it would be worth considering adding to the Broadside stand.

Proposed Broadside stand:
Infantry, 20cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
2 x Twin-linked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Twin-linked Plasma Rifles: 30cm AP4+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Notes: Reinforced Armour

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asaura

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:55 am

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Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am
Posts: 481

I use one formation of Broadsides all the time. It is Orca-deployed and used to either destroy void/power shields or to kill lightly-armored AVs.

I don't understand why deploying in an Orca is bad. These guys have so long a range that they can land safely inside Tau flak defenses and still be able to shoot at almost any target. They can even land on an enemy table-edge corner to shoot along the enemy deployment zone.

Once deployed, they are a primary target for the enemy. In approximately half my games, the Broadside deployment is a one-way trip even if I don't take big risks.

Using an Orca to deploy Broadsides is very useful, because you can use the same Orca to drive them off once the mission is over (on Turn 2, after BS have fired on Turn 1 and on Turn 2). I have repeatedly used the Orcas on two missions per game with this technique.

If there's something wrong with the Broadsides, it's the 75 cm range. Other players hate it.

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asaura

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:59 am

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Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am
Posts: 481

(Chroma @ Aug. 22 2006,02:10)

QUOTE

Garrisoned into cover and set up on overwatch with some Gun Drones to protect them would be the way I'd deloy them.

While this sounds good, it is not possible with the Tournament Scenario Garrison rules. Drones can't garrison, as they have speed 30. You can garrison Broadsides (speed 15), but not if they have Drones attached. Even if you garrison Broadsides on their own, they won't have a separate Drone formation nearby.

You can, of course, use another Garrison formation, such as human auxiliaries, to protect a Broadside garrison.

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Honda

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:22 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I've only used Broadsides on one battle (not my list) and although they pretty much beat the crap out of a predator formation, they did not fire on T2, and were wiped out in T3.

So, from a shooting perspective, they are extremely effective, but being able to keep them alive for very long is the trick. I don't really see them emulating their abilities in 40K to the same degree as in Epic.

I also think they should be Infantry as their current stats seem inconsistent with other characterizations of LV and Inf.

I don't take them as they are an anchor in a mech force, but it seems like they ought to be a more viable choice.
As it is now, you're better off taking HH's with Railguns since neither unit can occupy terrain, but at least the HH's are more mobile.

Asaura has brought up a valid/effective way of employing them, but I tend to not want to risk the potential failure of the returning Orca to sweep them off to safety. Also, since I tend to play against Eldar a fair bit, I'm a little leery of deploying a unit whose firing range just happens to be the same as a doubling jet bike/Vyper.

I think there are armies where the BS does better than others (SM Tank armies), but I don't find it something that I take all the time.

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Tactica

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:52 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

I agree with the majority opinion here, its an old issue that has sat unsettled with me a long time - there's no way in hell that a broadside should be an LV.

They should be infantry.

The only reason they are not was to satisfy people that wanted both crisis and broadsides as LV. To settle the argument, CS made the crisis infantry and the broadside LV for testing - and to calm the waters.

FACT:
====
Fluff supports braodsides as infantry. Core design clearly makes them infantry. Comparable units in 40K and E:A are both infantry. (obliterators, terminators, thousand son terminators, tyranid warriors, etc)

OPINION:
=======
LV makes the Broadside unnecessarily fragile in E:A.

+ + +

So I agree with Honda, Dobbsy, and Chroma - make them infantry.

+ + +

Asaura is correct. When fielded on board an Orca, I'm convinced its the only way to effectively field them.

As Asaura already pointed out, you cannot garrison them with drones due to movement - and by themselves, they just fold.

The Orca allows the 75cm weapon to get into range after deployment and get the shots off that you need quickly. However, they explode or at least break right after that. So your target of choice better be worth 300 points - or more if you think you will lose the Orca too.

In 40K, they can be deployed from Orca, but commonly they are deployed in the open with shield drones that yield a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save now. The shield drones also ahve the same toughness. So the unit can hold the line increadibly well with SMS or Plasma + the railgun shots. In 40K, they are the longest range we have right there with the Railgun on the Hammerhead (well, until you get to fliers).

In E:A, until they are changed to infantry, I've resigned myself to playing the broadside as a disposable and fragile strike formation from Orca, not as a heavy infantry formation at all.

If I don't have the points for an Orca, I don't field them. They are just that worthless otherwise IMHO.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:55 am

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

(Tactica @ Aug. 22 2006,18:52)

QUOTE

If I don't have the points for an Orca, I don't field them. They are just that worthless otherwise IMHO.

Yeah, this is what I was aiming at as I feel exactly the same way. It's very disappointing that I don't use them.

AMHC(6)=375 vs BS(4)+Drones(4)=375

I know what I would take....

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Chroma

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:02 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Tactica @ Aug. 22 2006,18:52)

QUOTE

LV makes the Broadside unnecessarily fragile in E:A.

+ + +

So I agree with Honda, Dobbsy, and Chroma - make them infantry.

Er... sorry Tactica, I'm actually in the LV camp for Broadsides (and I'd even go so far as Crisis Suits as well), cuz they are *way* larger than a Tau Fire Warrior, much bigger than Terminators... and probably the same size as Obliterators (don't own any, and *I* think Oblits should be LVs as well...)...

Well, truth be told, I think E:A needs a "Heavy Infantry" catagory to put all those things into, because, at least in my experience, it's high STR "AT" weapons (eg plasma weapons and rokkits) that take them out in 40k, not massed AP (eg, bolter) fire.

To me LV seems to almost fit the bill... if only my agility Special Rule had caught on... *sigh*

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Chroma

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:09 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Dobbsy @ Aug. 23 2006,02:55)

QUOTE

AMHC(6)=375 ?vs ?BS(4)+Drones(4)=375

I know what I would take....

Well...

AMHC(6)=375 vs BS(4)+BS(2)=350

They're both 6 unit formations, one has speed, the other has reinforced armour... and can garrison and start on overwatch and sit in cover.

Two 6 unit Broadside Contingents (or are we calling them Cadres now?!) sitting up front on overwatch with the Gue'vesa or Kroot guarding them could be nasty!

I might have to take them for a spin...

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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

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sampy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:08 am

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Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 29

Good points...but for my opinion(like many of you have been saying allready), IF you are going to use Broadsides effectively, you need that orca, or you need something to protect them from incoming fire. They are just too vulnerable what comes in incoming fire, and too slow.
But from good cover, well protected, maybe...

I have been playing with dices a littlebit and tried to find out that how broadsides can deal with that possible incoming fire , example from IG...and the result was often pretty poor...

Like Dobbsy said, you really don?t have to think which you will take, Hammerheads or Broadsides... Maybe in very large games, there could be more use for them, but in 3k games, they just seem to be too expensive for their purpose.

But Chroma:

AMHC(6) = 375pts , Broasides(6) = 450pts...right?

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"We are the Bor...I mean Tau, resistance is futile."

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sampy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:15 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 29

Couple of examples..

AMHC(8) + drones + networked = 600pts

Squadron of (2 *) morays = 600pts

BS(6) + drones + orca = 625pts

And for IG...

LR tank company 650pts

..what is wrong in this picture...??

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:27 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

One stand of Terminators has 5 wounds, and takes about 8 lascannon hits (12 Marines or 16 Guardsmen) to kill completely. One stand of Broadsides (assuming 3 suits) actually have 6 wounds, plus a few from drones (2-6, depending, but usually 2). Under lascannon fire, it takes an average of 4 hits to kill off the drones (assuming 2 drones/stand), then 3 more to kill off the suits entirely. Krak Missiles need 30 hits to kill off a Stand, and battlecannons need at least 15. Even if we assume pairs of suits, that's still about as many wounds as a Termie stand, that are just as tough to kill as termies vs. AT fire.

Still think that's a 'Light Vehicle'?

(to be honest, I've had more Broadsides gunned down by bolters and lasguns than by AT weapons like lascannons, meltas, or missiles) Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons are the best way to kill Crisis or Broadsides in 40k (well, plasma/starcannon, and big 'Nids with Devourers, but...). From my experience in 40k, based on what causes the fastest kills, that makes Broadsides 'Infantry' in Epic.

*********************
Also, 'Contingent' => 'Mission Group', please.

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