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Tiding from SG about epic
primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:45 pm 
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(Magnus @ Aug. 04 2006,10:52)
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(consectari @ Aug. 04 2006,16:39)
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I tried to stay away from this thread, but I'm getting really annoyed at the way it has changed from defending GW to personal attacks against those people who are facing up to reality.

Oy! If by personal attacks you mean the gentle nudges Markconz gave to us cronies, don't worry.... we can handle that.

After all, 16 years of GW mistreatments can give anyone a very tick skin ?:p

Hi!

As far as I can tell the conversation is civil and polite.

I like people to express contrary views, it makes me think.  :)

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:47 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 04 2006,10:53)
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(Markconz @ Aug. 04 2006,08:44)
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Question: What I would like to know is are more people playing Epic Armageddon now than were playing Space Marine over a decade ago? I may have asked this question once before but as far as I can recall no-one seemed to know the answer - or even to be able to guess at it.

Granted this might be just my perception, but it seems to me there were far more players of SM2 than E:A, but I'm willing to bet there are more players of E:A than for E40k.

Rose colored glasses or not, there's no comparison between the current level of support and the level of support for SM2. Now - no WD coverage, minis (for the most part) only available on line. Then - at least one article per every/every other WD issue, minis readily available in multiple hobby shops.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not E:A which has failed to spark interest, but rather it's GW's inane marketing. IMHO, E:A is an excellent game. It's too bad more people don't know it. Yes, more people own computers today than ever before, but not every gamer owns one or has reliable internet access.

Hi!

This is an important point. Unlike epic 40k, I beleive epic A is a good rule set that has suffered from bad GW support.

So epic A indeed hasnt failed, but GW sure did.

Primarch

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:16 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 03 2006,15:15)
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@ wargame insomniac and others - yes of course and isn't hindsight a wonderful thing... ? :;):

Hindsight???

I have never been on single marketing course but it seems olike an obvious move to me. Cater to 6 biggest armies starting with 3 most popular and then doing Eldar+Choas+Nids soon after.

Get all of the players of the 6 biggest armies interested in game and then you have a chance of attracting more people to buy Siegemasters and Feral Orks as more people would have been buying and pklaying EpicA.

Nevermind- GW did n't do the sensible thing and now we suffer the consequences.....

James

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:02 am 
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Well...you need at least ONE thread where whining and moaning can go on... otherwise the stuff just spreads all over the place... gotta contain it you know.  :p
   
    The marketing thing is complex.  I believe that the number of players for EpicA vs SM2 is far far lower...and the support is lower than that.  Those were the golden years, even thought I wasnt around then to enjoy them.  But, especially here in the US, things have changed as far as marketing goes.  There just aren't any stores around my area that play wargames period, much less hassle with GW.  True, they could change that, but would require Massive amounts of cash pumped into marketing and production.  And they shot that in the foot by forbidding the independent sale of SG products, whether in store or online.  Given GW attitude past and present, it isnt going to happen.  Not even a change in management would make that happen...the best we could hope for would be for them to license the Epic scale out to another company.  That and Print-on-Demand....  :p

Just my good, ole' honest opinion.


ib

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dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:14 am 
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(primarch @ Aug. 04 2006,14:45)
QUOTE

(Magnus @ Aug. 04 2006,10:52)
QUOTE

(consectari @ Aug. 04 2006,16:39)
QUOTE
I tried to stay away from this thread, but I'm getting really annoyed at the way it has changed from defending GW to personal attacks against those people who are facing up to reality.

Oy! If by personal attacks you mean the gentle nudges Markconz gave to us cronies, don't worry.... we can handle that.

After all, 16 years of GW mistreatments can give anyone a very tick skin ?:p

Hi!

As far as I can tell the conversation is civil and polite.

I like people to express contrary views, it makes me think. ?:)

Primarch

I guess I am just so tired of hearing the heated arguments and jibs going on here at work over some of the events of the world and thus may have tainted my view here as well. Sorry.

As long as all of you are feeling happy and no one is feeling slighted, then I overreacted and I withdraw my request.

dafrca

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Magnus
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:34 am 
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(dafrca @ Aug. 05 2006,01:14)
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I guess I am just so tired of hearing the heated arguments and jibs going on here at work over some of the events of the world and thus may have tainted my view here as well. Sorry.

As long as all of you are feeling happy and no one is feeling slighted, then I overreacted and I withdraw my request.

dafrca

Nothing to worry or to be sorry about.
Besides, we old ones are cranky. If anyone offends us, rest assured we'll let EVERYONE know  :p
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:38 am 
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Possibly what interests me the most about this thread is hearing how many people have the 'I can't buy SG stuff at my local GW store!' on their list... I live in a fairly nice area, but not the kind of place I'd really call all that game-enthusiastic... But if I drive for about half an hour to the local GW store, I can walk in the doors and buy virtually any piece of Epic, BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Mordheim or Warmaster piece I feel like... Their Specialist Games section is about the same size as their 40K section, in fact, and is right next to it. Me and Orangesm played two games of Epic in the store, and if anything most of the crew seemed happy to see it on the table. My current intent is, once I'm back from vacation, I'm going to contact them about hosting an Epic tournament down here for folks to come play in sometime in September. It just amazes me that so few GW stores sell SG stuff... I don't think I've ever walked into that store and NOT had at least some SG stuff on the shelves (At one point they'd been stripped almost bare just before Games Day, and only had 2 Reavers and a Phantom left on the shelves, but even then...)
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Markconz
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:43 am 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 04 2006,23:38)
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It just amazes me that so few GW stores sell SG stuff... I don't think I've ever walked into that store and NOT had at least some SG stuff on the shelves

:O

Ok THAT truly surprises me!  :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:51 am 
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(wargame_insomniac @ Aug. 04 2006,22:16)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Aug. 03 2006,15:15)
QUOTE
@ wargame insomniac and others - yes of course and isn't hindsight a wonderful thing... ? :;):

Hindsight???

I have never been on single marketing course but it seems olike an obvious move to me. Cater to 6 biggest armies starting with 3 most popular and then doing Eldar+Choas+Nids soon after.

Get all of the players of the 6 biggest armies interested in game and then you have a chance of attracting more people to buy Siegemasters and Feral Orks as more people would have been buying and pklaying EpicA.

Nevermind- GW did n't do the sensible thing and now we suffer the consequences.....

James

Yes absolutely, many of us (including myself) said exactly the same thing at the time.

However, the original plans for epics release were made with a much bigger resource base - had Jervis known most of his resources were about to be cut, I doubt he would have even started work on EA.

Look on the bright side - if the release schedule was the other way around, we would probably never have seen the siege masters and feral orks (the siege masters aren't terribly exciting to me but the feral ork stuff is neat). The way things are, we have these two mini ranges, plus hopefully chaos and nids will be put back into production (still with a few new figures).  :;):




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Xisor
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:26 am 
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Amusingly, sort of, this does follow the same pattern as that Epic PC Game, which had all the 'grounding' done for all the 'extras' and mods and things to be plugged into it, but they never arrived. Stuff for Eldar and Nids and such, but it was only ever Marines, IG and Orks IIRC.

Still, it's not *that* bad. Andy's still here, and he's still entrusted to publish the official E:A stuff for GW, it's just he happens to trust the ERC's judgement on a few things(I'd do the same!)

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:53 am 
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For the record - my comments are not intended to offend anyone. Apologies if anyones feathers have been ruffled too vigorously ?:;):

I do like to see different points of view - like Primarch says it makes you think.

I am especially interested in how people who have been on the epic roller coaster from the very start experienced it all. Myself - I started with the very first edition of AT when Epic was just titans, and then got an ork horde after that. Unlike most of the voices here - I got away from epic during the space marine days.

To me and other players in the local Epic crowd at the time, Space Marine seemed to be continously updated with ill considered supplements, expansions, and some truly awful miniature ranges (like the box vindicators). The rules were updated almost every month in a magazine you had to buy (just for a few pages to keep up with the game). 'Codex Creep' was invented in those hellish days of White Dwarf surprises. I was glad when it all finally fell to pieces under its own inelegant weight. (That had happened for most players long before Epic40k around here).

I got back into epic with Epic40k - AFTER it had died and most people had stopped playing it (my timing is terrible it seems ?:( ). This was about the time that Chaos wasn't released (unless you count a single sprue and 3 Chaos space marine vehicle packs (rhinos, landraiders and predators of all things - they already had those!) as a release!!),

For me personally, the current edition has a lot going for it over the past editions:

-Everything is in one place, Rules, Articles, Competitions, Online Store, Forums (including a link to the largest non-official Epic Site).
-The miniature ranges which are released are complete, are of better quality than SM ranges, have some new stuff, and are in the right quantities per pack.
-Very importantly, rules, lists and articles are online, free download, supported and largely fine tuned and playtested by players (rather than hasty monthly rules additions slapped together to sell the latest miniatures - as was too often the case in the space marine days).
Army ranges are planned and released as a balanced whole, not as a trickle of random additions which cause confusion and balance problems - something it has taken Netepic many years to correct.
-I don't have to waste time in traffic, getting a park etc by going to a store to get stuff I need. A few clicks and it is delivered to my door. It occured to me last year when I was buying scenery online (stuff I could have bought from the local shop, but didn't have time to) - personally, I don't really care if Epic is in a local shop or not (except as some sort of vague advertising for other people). If it is in a nearby online store it is fine (unfortunately it is currently not way down here in NZ - but that is not a problem for the vast majority of the epic market).

So yes SG desperately need to fix some things (such as releasing Chaos and Nids), but many things are a vast improvement over a past that was in my opinion not nearly as successful as some would say it was.




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:29 am 
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Of course ... American Football !?  Is there any other !?! :D              Back OT ... Been buying most Epic released since '90 !  'Nuff said !  :D

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:53 pm 
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Hi!

Granted on the minis front, later minis are MUCH better than SM2 era ones.

Primarch

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:33 pm 
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(primarch @ Aug. 06 2006,17:53)
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Hi!

Granted on the minis front, later minis are MUCH better than SM2 era ones.

Primarch

True in some cases. But then only version now sold of IG Chimera & Leman Russ. So lost some variety.

Cheers

JAMES

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:41 pm 
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Aye in a lot of cases the E:40k era had the best mix of detail & variety in their models.

These days, most models look better, but have far less options.

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